[Six Nations 2018] - Ireland

[munstermuffin]

Tommy Bowe called in. Don't understand that really.

Dillane rumoured to need surgery. Not sure on that story. This is confirmed now by IRFU. He's looking like he's done for season with shoulder injury

 

[Groundhog]

Apparently Dillane will need at least 8 weeks yes. Bowe being pulled in is such a poor decision.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I imagine Bowe is just in there as a guy who knows how everything works, he won't play so rather than having to teach Sweetnam or Byrne what to do in camp bring in a guy who knows what's up. 3 of Earls, Zebo, Gilroy, Ringrose and O'Halloran would need to get injured for him to feature at all in two weeks and even then I think you'd Carbery pushed to 23 or Sweetnam fast tracked.

 

[munstermuffin]

I imagine Bowe is just in there as a guy who knows how everything works, he won't play so rather than having to teach Sweetnam or Byrne what to do in camp bring in a guy who knows what's up. 3 of Earls, Zebo, Gilroy, Ringrose and O'Halloran would need to get injured for him to feature at all in two weeks and even then I think you'd Carbery pushed to 23 or Sweetnam fast tracked.

True I suppose. Our provincal guys are off for few days now though so could've brought them in to learn.

 

[munstermuffin]

Payne sat out session today

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Probably better to post in this thread than further derail the Wales/Ireland match day thread.

These are the immediate changes I'd like to see for the England game:
1. Jared Payne at fullback. Rob Kearney has great positional sense and is magnificent under a high ball. He can't hit a line or beat defenders. Payne runs excellent lines and would provide incision when popping up in midfield.
2. Tiernan O'Halloran as the outside back bench option. He's an electric runner in open play and could cause havoc late in games against tired legs. Payne provides centre cover.
3. Overhaul the backrow. Sean O'Brien isn't getting it done. Jamie Heaslip has played a lot of rugby of late for a veteran player. Go with 6 O'Mahony (lineout jumper and aggressive tackler), 7 Leavy (superb support player and pilfers a lot of ball), 8 Stander (ball carrier and all round excellent player) and Heaslip on the bench. That's a well balanced backrow.
4. Cian Healy for Jack McGrath. It's simply a call to reward current form.

With the summer tour in mind, the outside backs need to be changed. Keith Earls is exciting with space in front of him but has too many holes in his game. Andrew Trimble is too old with the World Cup in mind. Simon Zebo has lost a step and may need a kick up the arse. Bring in Darren Sweetnam and Adam Byrne to see what they can do. Sweetnam is an excellent footballer who can pop up anywhere. Byrne is a finisher with a good offloading game and always a danger collecting cross field kicks. Craig Gilroy is the other option.

Transition away from Rory Best and Jamie Heaslip. Niall Scannell is the man at hooker moving forward and he needs minutes on the field ahead of the World Cup. Perhaps looks at CJ Stander as captain.

From the summer tour on, back Tiernan O'Halloran as the 15. He's immensely talented and can provide the cutting edge Ireland need.

 

[munstermuffin]

Probably better to post in this thread than further derail the Wales/Ireland match day thread.

These are the immediate changes I'd like to see for the England game:
1. Jared Payne at fullback. Rob Kearney has great positional sense and is magnificent under a high ball. He can't hit a line or beat defenders. Payne runs excellent lines and would provide incision when popping up in midfield.
2. Tiernan O'Halloran as the outside back bench option. He's an electric runner in open play and could cause havoc late in games against tired legs. Payne provides centre cover.
3. Overhaul the backrow. Sean O'Brien isn't getting it done. Jamie Heaslip has played a lot of rugby of late for a veteran player. Go with 6 O'Mahony (lineout jumper and aggressive tackler), 7 Leavy (superb support player and pilfers a lot of ball), 8 Stander (ball carrier and all round excellent player) and Heaslip on the bench. That's a well balanced backrow.
4. Cian Healy for Jack McGrath. It's simply a call to reward current form.

With the summer tour in mind, the outside backs need to be changed. Keith Earls is exciting with space in front of him but has too many holes in his game. Andrew Trimble is too old with the World Cup in mind. Simon Zebo has lost a step and may need a kick up the arse. Bring in Darren Sweetnam and Adam Byrne to see what they can do. Sweetnam is an excellent footballer who can pop up anywhere. Byrne is a finisher with a good offloading game and always a danger collecting cross field kicks. Craig Gilroy is the other option.

Transition away from Rory Best and Jamie Heaslip. Niall Scannell is the man at hooker moving forward and he needs minutes on the field ahead of the World Cup. Perhaps looks at CJ Stander as captain.

From the summer tour on, back Tiernan O'Halloran as the 15. He's immensely talented and can provide the cutting edge Ireland need.

Snoop thats too much sense for hear. I agree though.

Next week I'd like to see

Healy - As you say reward form
Scannell - he's in form
Furlong
Ryan- Needs to be phased out though
Henderson - seemed more happier beside Ryan last night
O'Mahony- he offers in lineout more than anyone and on floor
Leavy - is form call and a 7
Stander - doesn't deserve to be dropped but more so blooding another 8
Marmion - don't risk Murray equally we need to test another 9
Sexton- he's key
Zebo/Earls
Payne - RK isn't on form

Best- Phase out
McGrath
Ryan - Play 20 regardless of Furlong form
Toner - Replace Ryan but 2nd row is issue
Heaslip - Doesn't deserve dropping only here to see alternative
Murray/McGrath
Jackson
O'Halloran or Conway

Reson I left wings as is is the other boys aren't in squad. I'm all for Sweetnam and Byrne

 

[munstermuffin]

Also would Ireland benefit from bringing in an established attack coach. Under Schmidt we've been effective but never looks awesome attacking. More submitting teams by our structured play. As people say it's dull rugby but it worked. But going forward we need to evolve.
Should an attack coach be hored as it's 1 aspect we haven't been good at all Schmidts time. Again not a negative as it wasn't part of plan but now we do need it

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

McFadden called into the squad. Social media screams Leinster bias when in reality bringing in a young guy who doesn't know the ropes will just disrupt things while not learning anything himself in a pretty crucial week.

 

[munstermuffin]

McFadden called into the squad. Social media screams Leinster bias when in reality bringing in a young guy who doesn't know the ropes will just disrupt things while not learning anything himself in a pretty crucial week.

Sorry it's a joke. Anyone called in was not goint to play so could come in and learn. McFadden hasn't been in alot latelt so wouldn't be so far ahead. All young guns have no game so wouldn't disrupt any team. It's right that it's a bit uproar.
I know you'll disagree but this isn't Leinster bias but more a glaring view of Schmidts huge weakness. He won't trust anyone outside loop. Adam Byrne is near call him in even.
I agree it's a big week but if Ireland loose decisions like this mean more heat comes on Schmidt. And this will be harshest thing to say but I can see this creeping down same route that ended Eddie and Kidney.
Good world cup on view like Deccie.
Signed new contract like both. Then it all starts to unravel. Ok Schmidt beat NZ and SA. But still loose and it's a shocking 6Nations. Media beginning to turn and it does add up.

 

[big ginger 8]

Sorry it's a joke. Anyone called in was not goint to play so could come in and learn. McFadden hasn't been in alot latelt so wouldn't be so far ahead. All young guns have no game so wouldn't disrupt any team. It's right that it's a bit uproar.
I know you'll disagree but this isn't Leinster bias but more a glaring view of Schmidts huge weakness. He won't trust anyone outside loop. Adam Byrne is near call him in even.
I agree it's a big week but if Ireland loose decisions like this mean more heat comes on Schmidt. And this will be harshest thing to say but I can see this creeping down same route that ended Eddie and Kidney.
Good world cup on view like Deccie.
Signed new contract like both. Then it all starts to unravel. Ok Schmidt beat NZ and SA. But still loose and it's a shocking 6Nations. Media beginning to turn and it does add up.

It's 5 days. How much would the young guy actually learn and would it be worth it with the cost of good reps to the rest of the team? It's a very meh decision, not one I am massively happy with or anything but there is a clear and reasonable logic to it. When that's the case outrage is very rarely the correct reaction.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Sorry it's a joke. Anyone called in was not goint to play so could come in and learn. McFadden hasn't been in alot latelt so wouldn't be so far ahead. All young guns have no game so wouldn't disrupt any team. It's right that it's a bit uproar.
I know you'll disagree but this isn't Leinster bias but more a glaring view of Schmidts huge weakness. He won't trust anyone outside loop. Adam Byrne is near call him in even.
I agree it's a big week but if Ireland loose decisions like this mean more heat comes on Schmidt. And this will be harshest thing to say but I can see this creeping down same route that ended Eddie and Kidney.
Good world cup on view like Deccie.
Signed new contract like both. Then it all starts to unravel. Ok Schmidt beat NZ and SA. But still loose and it's a shocking 6Nations. Media beginning to turn and it does add up.

McFadden isn't needed in his province, knows what to do in camp and won't be used, no one else fits that bill. Better for everyone and completely immaterial to Schmidt's job. "OK Schmidt beat NZ and SA but..." is an example of how ludicrously high fans expectations are.

 

[munstermuffin]

It's 5 days. How much would the young guy actually learn and would it be worth it with the cost of good reps to the rest of the team? It's a very meh decision, not one I am massively happy with or anything but there is a clear and reasonable logic to it. When that's the case outrage is very rarely the correct reaction.

As I said I don't think McFadden knows that much more. I agree it isn't too big but a young lad can experience camp. Had a look and even Leinster fans are taking **** out of it. I think it says it all really

 

[munstermuffin]

McFadden isn't needed in his province, knows what to do in camp and won't be used, no one else fits that bill. Better for everyone and completely immaterial to Schmidt's job. "OK Schmidt beat NZ and SA but..." is an example of how ludicrously high fans expectations are.

But nobody is needed in provinces as it's down week. My point is he isn't that accustomed to camp.
On the point of SA and NZ. Some people argue it's worst SA team in 50 years or more. So that is being over hyped and NZ we caught on hop. I'm not saying that but that view is out there. On high standards it's more we are heading towards our worst win rate in years. Now as I say I accept some will not agree but its a very poor decision that may haunt him. I may be totally wrong butbthe trend is beginning to seem similar to last 2 coaches

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But nobody is needed in provinces as it's down week. My point is he isn't that accustomed to camp.
On the point of SA and NZ. Some people argue it's worst SA team in 50 years or more. So that is being over hyped and NZ we caught on hop. I'm not saying that but that view is out there. On high standards it's more we are heading towards our worst win rate in years. Now as I say I accept some will not agree but its a very poor decision that may haunt him. I may be totally wrong butbthe trend is beginning to seem similar to last 2 coaches

The call straight up doesn't matter and the trend is in no way similar. What does Sweetnam or Byrne gain by coming into a squad with their backs against the wall having been taken away from a set up they're currently flourishing in? McFadden has been there and done it multiple times, worked with more of the players and staff and has in the last 12 months too, he fits in seemlessly whereas the other two don't.

The worst SA side is pretty rubbish and completely revisionist argument, when an Ireland side minus a number of key starters with a red card are the only team other than NZ to beat them in SA in a given year is dismissed by fans its a sign of a spoilt fan base. Surely you must agree with that. I'm not even going to entertain the ******** that is that point of view on the NZ game.

As for the last two coaches, their best results following their RWC's were a home win v Argentina for EO'S and a win in Cardiff for Kidney against a Wales side that forgot to turn up at home. Anyone seeing any correlation is deluded, Schmidt is in a different stratosphere to these guys.

- - - Updated - - -

But nobody is needed in provinces as it's down week. My point is he isn't that accustomed to camp.
On the point of SA and NZ. Some people argue it's worst SA team in 50 years or more. So that is being over hyped and NZ we caught on hop. I'm not saying that but that view is out there. On high standards it's more we are heading towards our worst win rate in years. Now as I say I accept some will not agree but its a very poor decision that may haunt him. I may be totally wrong butbthe trend is beginning to seem similar to last 2 coaches

The call straight up doesn't matter and the trend is in no way similar. What does Sweetnam or Byrne gain by coming into a squad with their backs against the wall having been taken away from a set up they're currently flourishing in? McFadden has been there and done it multiple times, worked with more of the players and staff and has in the last 12 months too, he fits in seemlessly whereas the other two don't.

The worst SA side is pretty rubbish and completely revisionist argument, when an Ireland side minus a number of key starters with a red card are the only team other than NZ to beat them in SA in a given year is dismissed by fans its a sign of a spoilt fan base. Surely you must agree with that. I'm not even going to entertain the ******** that is that point of view on the NZ game.

As for the last two coaches, their best results following their RWC's were a home win v Argentina for EO'S and a win in Cardiff for Kidney against a Wales side that forgot to turn up at home. Anyone seeing any correlation is deluded, Schmidt is in a different stratosphere to these guys.

 

[munstermuffin]

The call straight up doesn't matter and the trend is in no way similar. What does Sweetnam or Byrne gain by coming into a squad with their backs against the wall having been taken away from a set up they're currently flourishing in? McFadden has been there and done it multiple times, worked with more of the players and staff and has in the last 12 months too, he fits in seemlessly whereas the other two don't.

The worst SA side is pretty rubbish and completely revisionist argument, when an Ireland side minus a number of key starters with a red card are the only team other than NZ to beat them in SA in a given year is dismissed by fans its a sign of a spoilt fan base. Surely you must agree with that. I'm not even going to entertain the ******** that is that point of view on the NZ game.

As for the last two coaches, their best results following their RWC's were a home win v Argentina for EO'S and a win in Cardiff for Kidney against a Wales side that forgot to turn up at home. Anyone seeing any correlation is deluded, Schmidt is in a different stratosphere to these guys.

- - - Updated - - -



The call straight up doesn't matter and the trend is in no way similar. What does Sweetnam or Byrne gain by coming into a squad with their backs against the wall having been taken away from a set up they're currently flourishing in? McFadden has been there and done it multiple times, worked with more of the players and staff and has in the last 12 months too, he fits in seemlessly whereas the other two don't.

The worst SA side is pretty rubbish and completely revisionist argument, when an Ireland side minus a number of key starters with a red card are the only team other than NZ to beat them in SA in a given year is dismissed by fans its a sign of a spoilt fan base. Surely you must agree with that. I'm not even going to entertain the ******** that is that point of view on the NZ game.

As for the last two coaches, their best results following their RWC's were a home win v Argentina for EO'S and a win in Cardiff for Kidney against a Wales side that forgot to turn up at home. Anyone seeing any correlation is deluded, Schmidt is in a different stratosphere to these guys.

On rating SA side I agree and said it wasn't my view. On trend of comparison I'm just saying there's a similar feeling. Like the last 2 6nations some may say have been poor. And it seems a bit of the positivity is gone.
On call I agree it doesn't matter just I think it a joke. I respect anyone who disagrees. Just personal feeling. But equally it can be said anyone outside Leinster doesn't see Schmidt same as those supporting Leinster so judge him different.

 

[corny]

I find it sad that people outside of Leinster are lining up to tear the back off Schmidt; partly because i find the comparison with Kidney insulting. That chap was a bluffer and yes i know his record. However, Schmidt is giving them plenty of ammunition. I don't accept that the experience of camp is such a grave undertaking that only experts need apply. Its Rugby not particle physics and Byrne entering camp isn't going to send Carton House into meltdown. Should have been done 6 weeks ago if we're honest.

Bringing McFadden in is just another example of the same conservatism that saw Bowe parachuted in. Does it end after the seedings are decided? I hope so but i'm not sure now. In Joe we still trust.....just about.

 

[munstermuffin]

I find it sad that people outside of Leinster are lining up to tear the back off Schmidt; partly because i find the comparison with Kidney insulting. That chap was a bluffer and yes i know his record. However, Schmidt is giving them plenty of ammunition. I don't accept that the experience of camp is such a grave undertaking that only experts need apply. Its Rugby not particle physics and Byrne entering camp isn't going to send Carton House into meltdown. Should have been done 6 weeks ago if we're honest.

Bringing McFadden in is just another example of the same conservatism that saw Bowe parachuted in. Does it end after the seedings are decided? I hope so but i'm not sure now. In Joe we still trust.....just about.

Just on top. You say Kidney was a bluffer but he had great record with Munster and majority of his Irish career was successful too. Certainly not a bluffer. And he won a slam which is no easy feat as Schmidt's term shows. Both certainly have played great parts in Irish Rugby history. Leinster fans will always probably not give Kidney the respect or credir he deserves. And vice versa for Schmidt from South.
Equally I think alot within Leinster are on Schmidt's back too but again that goes with the territory.

I 100% agree on 2nd bit. It's not a Munster or Leinster issue it's simply a form call. Be it Sweetnam Byrne Adeolokun whoever.
My bigger worries are these 2 points:
1. If the systems Schmidt deploys are that complicated maybe that is why we can't play a fluid game and stick to dull rugby. Yes it works but it restricts due to conservatism.
2. This call in my eyes brings even more nalegativity and pressure on.
You call in a kids and it's "oh look he won't play but deserves the call up and playing well etc" but now it's all about "conservative call", "not trusting outside selected guys" and "picking no form half fit old guys over form".


On the end that is my fear too. Can we be sure there will be injection of youth after summer. I hope so too but am still unsure and more hopeful than confident it will happen.
In my eyes guys only know the system by going camp and learning. Equally every man woman and child in Northern Hemisphere know system and gameplan by now.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Leinster fans will always probably not give Kidney the respect or credir he deserves. And vice versa for Schmidt from South.

This is true.

Declan Kidney did a phenomenal job at Munster. He's to be commended for the role he played in turning Eddie O'Sullivan's underachieving team into a Grand Slam winning team. Surrounding himself with Gert Smal and Les Kiss was a masterstroke. Kiss' influence is sorely lacking on the Ireland team right now. As a Leinster fan though, the manner in which Declan Kidney left Leinster and the dismantling of the squad in his final months leave a sour taste.

I have a theory on Joe Schmidt. At Leinster he controlled the players day in and day out. He upskilled them to a huge degree and will rightly go down as the greatest coach Leinster have ever had. When he took the Ireland job, he was no longer involved in the daily upskilling of players. I believe Joe Schmidt didn't trust the way the provincial coaches were helping players develop and as such implemented a limited game plan. That's why we've seen a massive investment in coaching with the provinces. Rassie Erasmus, Jaques Nienebar, Andy Farrell (for Munster at the end of last season), Kieran Keane, Stuart Lancaster, Graham Henry (briefly at Leinster) and Jono Gibbes can't have come cheap and all are upgrades on what was already there (remains to be seen with Keane).

I disagree with the Fergus McFadden call and that of Tommy Bowe last week. If similar calls happen on the summer tour, questions will grow a lot louder about the coach.

While I'd like to see a few changes for the England game, there's merit to the approach Wales took in trusting their key players to bounce back following their Scotland defeat. To a man they stood up against Ireland. If Schmidt selects the same team again, they'd better perform similarly.

 

[munstermuffin]

This is true.

Declan Kidney did a phenomenal job at Munster. He's to be commended for the role he played in turning Eddie O'Sullivan's underachieving team into a Grand Slam winning team. Surrounding himself with Gert Smal and Les Kiss was a masterstroke. Kiss' influence is sorely lacking on the Ireland team right now. As a Leinster fan though, the manner in which Declan Kidney left Leinster and the dismantling of the squad in his final months leave a sour taste.

I have a theory on Joe Schmidt. At Leinster he controlled the players day in and day out. He upskilled them to a huge degree and will rightly go down as the greatest coach Leinster have ever had. When he took the Ireland job, he was no longer involved in the daily upskilling of players. I believe Joe Schmidt didn't trust the way the provincial coaches were helping players develop and as such implemented a limited game plan. That's why we've seen a massive investment in coaching with the provinces. Rassie Erasmus, Jaques Nienebar, Andy Farrell (for Munster at the end of last season), Kieran Keane, Stuart Lancaster, Graham Henry (briefly at Leinster) and Jono Gibbes can't have come cheap and all are upgrades on what was already there (remains to be seen with Keane).

I disagree with the Fergus McFadden call and that of Tommy Bowe last week. If similar calls happen on the summer tour, questions will grow a lot louder about the coach.

While I'd like to see a few changes for the England game, there's merit to the approach Wales took in trusting their key players to bounce back following their Scotland defeat. To a man they stood up against Ireland. If Schmidt selects the same team again, they'd better perform similarly.

On Kidney views you have. I understand that. And in retaliation alot have same for Schmidt from South. But on a rugby view both did alot of good as you've said.
On your Schmidt theory it's right what your saying but equally is that a part of his problem. He hasn't as much time and isn't confident in installing the skills in shorter times.
Like at Leinster it was day in day out develop. But on flip side the standard is higher as an international squad will be higher standard than club so therefore should be able to drill faster.

On calls like Bowe. I was at A game between Ulster and ourselves and a well known Ulster man made the point. Is centrally contracted players a hinderence in some ways. While all players are "IRFU contracted players" the centrally contacted are on big base pay but very small match fees for internationals. On flips side provincal contracts could have match fees of up to â'¬12k per game. It is an interesting view.