[Six Nations 2018] - Ireland

[corny]

there's merit to the approach Wales took in trusting their key players to bounce back following their Scotland defeat. To a man they stood up against Ireland. If Schmidt selects the same team again, they'd better perform similarly.

That doesn't necessarily follow. As far as you know Wales could have won by 30 if Howley picked a different team. You've no basis for a comparison because Howley hasn't given you the chance to see what the competition can do. And even if it does follow i'm full sure those same players are gonna let Howley down in the very near future if change doesn't occur. Even under Kidney we were capable of one off good performances (Australia WC). That didn't legitimise his selection at the time and Wales' performance on Friday shouldn't necessarily legitimise Howley's.

McFadden, Gilroy, Conway etc getting game time in Japan ahead of the young lads is a very real fear for me. McFadden seemingly gets selected when fit and while playing Gilroy, Conway, TOH, might seem progressive we all know in the big games hell would have to freeze over for them to get picked.

 

[munstermuffin]

That doesn't necessarily follow. As far as you know Wales could have won by 30 if Howley picked a different team. You've no basis for a comparison because Howley hasn't given you the chance to see what the competition can do. And even if it does follow i'm full sure those same players are gonna let Howley down in the very near future if change doesn't occur. Even under Kidney we were capable of one off good performances (Australia WC). That didn't legitimise his selection at the time and Wales' performance on Friday shouldn't necessarily legitimise Howley's.

McFadden, Gilroy, Conway etc getting game time in Japan ahead of the young lads is a very real fear for me. McFadden seemingly gets selected when fit and while playing Gilroy, Conway, TOH, might seem progressive we all know in the big games hell would have to freeze over for them to get picked.

On ot Corny. Kidney won a Slam. Thats more than 1 off performance. Had a very good 2011 RWC despite an off form Sexton and yhe uncertainty over who should be 10.
He went a full calendar year unbeaten.
My point is anyway he was much more than 1 off. But I think what Snoop is saying us IF there is same team that the hope is for a reaction.
But I agree with end bit

 

[corny]

On ot Corny. Kidney won a Slam. Thats more than 1 off performance. Had a very good 2011 RWC despite an off form Sexton and yhe uncertainty over who should be 10.
He went a full calendar year unbeaten.
My point is anyway he was much more than 1 off. But I think what Snoop is saying us IF there is same team that the hope is for a reaction.
But I agree with end bit

I'd rather not be drawn on this. We can agree to disagree.

Quite frankly nothing you say i haven't heard before and i find none of it convincing. It isn't a Munster V Leinster thing. The chap was a lucky manager, not a coach. Even ROG will tell you he learned nothing from him. Schmidt actually knows how to structure his team and upskill lads on a technical level. Under Kidney we couldn't get passed second phase without disintegrating. There is no comparison.

Thats my view and i won't be budging.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'd rather not be drawn on this. We can agree to disagree.

Quite frankly nothing you say i haven't heard before and i find none of it convincing. It isn't a Munster V Leinster thing. The chap was a lucky manager, not a coach. Even ROG will tell you he learned nothing from him. Schmidt actually knows how to structure his team and upskill lads on a technical level. Under Kidney we couldn't get passed second phase without disintegrating. There is no comparison.

Thats my view and i won't be budging.

As I said and Snoop said. Being from Leinster you probably won't hold him in high regard.
A lot of Munster will argue differently and say Schmidt has worst style. Either way I hold both in high regard and facts are both have achieved a lot and I believe it's hell of a lot more than luck.

On ROG, just to point out I know him on a personal level and he holds Deccie in highest regard and credits him with a lot in his career and off field. It upset him that Deccie was one to end his career in green but that comment is 100% wrong and untrue.

Anyway as I said I'm not here to change anyone's view on it. Your from Leinster and view will be different from mine from Munster.

 

[corny]

As I said and Snoop said. Being from Leinster you probably won't hold him in high regard.
A lot of Munster will argue differently and say Schmidt has worst style. Either way I hold both in high regard and facts are both have achieved a lot and I believe it's hell of a lot more than luck.

On ROG, just to point out I know him on a personal level and he holds Deccie in highest regard and credits him with a lot in his career and off field. It upset him that Deccie was one to end his career in green but that comment is 100% wrong and untrue.

Anyway as I said I'm not here to change anyone's view on it. Your from Leinster and view will be different from mine from Munster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSJe7HOxtrU

Believe what you want but please don't put words in my mouth. Me being from Leinster has nothing to do with it. Snoop is entitled to his opinion. Has nothing to do with me. Don't row me in with him.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

looks like the Irish got a bit friendly with the Welsh last game

 

[munstermuffin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSJe7HOxtrU

Believe what you want but please don't put words in my mouth. Me being from Leinster has nothing to do with it. Snoop is entitled to his opinion. Has nothing to do with me. Don't row me in with him.

Haven't watched clip but I will guess it's either from his documentary or rte or Jess slating Deccie. Which they've both came out numerous times since saying was heat of moment due to Irish ending.
But on it fair enough you don't like Kidney as I said I'm not here to change anyones views just don't think luck brings all the success he won. Equally people think Schmidt had luck on his side but again it's more than luck.

Anyway this isn't a Kidney vs Schmidt thread and I not interested that as I've stated I rate both highly.

 

[dunney77]

I was thinking today how successful the switch of Farrell was to 12.

If you do a bit of shuffling with the Irish backs...it looks deadly.

1) - McGrath
2) - Best
3) - Furlong
4) - Toner
5) - Ryan
6) - POM
7) - SOB
8) - Stander

9) - Murray
10) - Jackson
12) - Sexton
13) - Henshaw
14) - Ringrose
11) - Zebo
15) - Payne

I know Sexton probably doesn't have the body to cope with 12

 

[munstermuffin]

I was thinking today how successful the switch of Farrell was to 12.

If you do a bit of shuffling with the Irish backs...it looks deadly.

1) - McGrath
2) - Best
3) - Furlong
4) - Toner
5) - Ryan
6) - POM
7) - SOB
8) - Stander

9) - Murray
10) - Jackson
12) - Sexton
13) - Henshaw
14) - Ringrose
11) - Zebo
15) - Payne

I know Sexton probably doesn't have the body to cope with 12

Thinks its more Sexton too good a 10. Don't think Ringrose would be a success on wing either. Can do a job certainly but a bit of his talent would suffer

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I was thinking today how successful the switch of Farrell was to 12.

If you do a bit of shuffling with the Irish backs...it looks deadly.

1) - McGrath
2) - Best
3) - Furlong
4) - Toner
5) - Ryan
6) - POM
7) - SOB
8) - Stander

9) - Murray
10) - Jackson
12) - Sexton
13) - Henshaw
14) - Ringrose
11) - Zebo
15) - Payne

I know Sexton probably doesn't have the body to cope with 12

A second playmaker could be handy right now - Not necessarily needed long term though - but its not Sexton at 12. Olding, Payne (at 15) and Carbery (beefed up a wee bit) are probably the best options but they'll come in in Ringrose's place if its in the centre.

In the next 12 months a starting XV will be picked out of the following options;

9. Murray
10. Sexton, Jackson, Carbery
11. Zebo*, Kelleher, ROL, Sweetnam
12. Henshaw, Olding, Aki, Carbery, Scannell
13. Henshaw, Ringrose, Payne*, ROL
14. Earls*, Trimble*, Sweetnam, Byrne
15. Kearney*, Payne, Zebo, TOH, Carbery

I've put an asterisk beside the Schmidt selections that have proved to be ineffective in terms of working consistently and that I'd be really disappointed to see in the next 6nations championship. If Aki and Henshaw were reintroduced I'd be less worried if we don't have a second playmaker but we're currently wasting Ringrose's attacking ability considering how flat Sexton plays and how slow Murray is a well set rush defence is smothering any screen pass that could set him loose.

 

[munstermuffin]

A second playmaker could be handy right now - Not necessarily needed long term though - but its not Sexton at 12. Olding, Payne (at 15) and Carbery (beefed up a wee bit) are probably the best options but they'll come in in Ringrose's place if its in the centre.

In the next 12 months a starting XV will be picked out of the following options;

9. Murray
10. Sexton, Jackson, Carbery
11. Zebo*, Kelleher, ROL, Sweetnam
12. Henshaw, Olding, Aki, Carbery, Scannell
13. Henshaw, Ringrose, Payne*, ROL
14. Earls*, Trimble*, Sweetnam, Byrne
15. Kearney*, Payne, Zebo, TOH, Carbery

I've put an asterisk beside the Schmidt selections that have proved to be ineffective in terms of working consistently and that I'd be really disappointed to see in the next 6nations championship. If Aki and Henshaw were reintroduced I'd be less worried if we don't have a second playmaker but we're currently wasting Ringrose's attacking ability considering how flat Sexton plays and how slow Murray is a well set rush defence is smothering any screen pass that could set him loose.

Add in Blenyendaal, Farrell (who Schmidt was eager to get back) and James Hart will challenge for 21 jersey.
Also can see lads from U20s this year push up bit faster than usual

 

[munstermuffin]

Interesting press briefings out of Leinster yesterday.

Sean O'Brien stating it's nice playing open rugby and that basically the Ireland gameplan is restricted and limits abilities of guys. He wasn't critical but good read.

Also all press seem to say Kearney is done and Carbery future is at 15. How his pace and hands are great there and he may bolt for Lions. Also that Kearney only looks for contact.

 

[ALJ]

Sean O'Brien stating it's nice playing open rugby and that basically the Ireland gameplan is restricted and limits abilities of guys. He wasn't critical but good read.

I seem to remember Heaslip saying something similar the season after Schmidt left Leinster (albeit the results were worse at the time). Not about Ireland but about Leinster being more open and enjoyable to play for (IIRC).

Maybe I'm imagining it.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I seem to remember Heaslip saying something similar the season after Schmidt left Leinster (albeit the results were worse at the time). Not about Ireland but about Leinster being more open and enjoyable to play for (IIRC).

Maybe I'm imagining it.

As far as I recall, Luke Fitzgerald said it too. The inference was that Matt O'Connor had the players playing "off the cuff" as opposed to choosing from a suite of plays which was the case under Joe Schmidt. The current model reminds me of how the team played in the first year of the Cheika/Knox partnership and in Gary Ella's year in charge ie players having the courage to back themselves in any situation and having the skills to back it up. This is underpinned by a very aggressive pack and rucking game, a Joe Schmidt trademark. Under Matt O'Connor, that aspect was sorely lacking and passing skills deteriorated.

It'll be interesting to see what's done with Joey Carbery. He could give Ireland an added attacking threat from 15 and would help Johnny Sexton out immensely as he's an extra option as first receiver. Can he be convinced to stay at 15 rather than his preferred position of 10? Ross Byrne's emergence as another quality flyhalf clouds the issue. Either way, he's a star in the making. It's a great position to be in to have two emerging 10s of such quality.

 

[munstermuffin]

Who'd you rate a better 10 Snoop? Carbery or Byrne

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Who'd you rate a better 10 Snoop? Carbery or Byrne

At the start of November it wasn't even a debate; Carbery all the way. Byrne's form has skyrocketed since then as he's grown more comfortable in the role. I still think Carbery is the better 10. Whether putting him at 10 and leaving Byrne as his backup is the best use of resources is debatable. Carbery at 15 with Byrne at 10 long term is probably best for Leinster but would it keep the Athy man happy? It's a lovely position to be in because 12 months ago it was looking like Cathal Marsh and a very bare cupboard behind Johnny Sexton for Leinster.

 

[Amiga500]

Also all press seem to say Kearney is done and Carbery future is at 15. How his pace and hands are great there and he may bolt for Lions. Also that Kearney only looks for contact.

Nice to see the press in Ireland are as f**king stupid as ever.

Kearney was done 3 years ago. Everyone including the dogs in the street knew it. Unfortunately f**k all was done in terms of looking at alternatives.

- - - Updated - - -

At the start of November it wasn't even a debate; Carbery all the way.

Hmmm.

While I haven't seen every game he's played, I haven't seen him do much in the way of tactical kicking. Look no further than Ian Madigan or Danny Cipriani to see how limiting it can be if your 10 can only really run the football.

If you've seen evidence of, or are comfortable with, his kicking game - do say!

 

[profitius]

Nice to see the press in Ireland are as f**king stupid as ever.

Kearney was done 3 years ago. Everyone including the dogs in the street knew it. Unfortunately f**k all was done in terms of looking at alternatives.

- - - Updated - - -



Hmmm.

While I haven't seen every game he's played, I haven't seen him do much in the way of tactical kicking. Look no further than Ian Madigan or Danny Cipriani to see how limiting it can be if your 10 can only really run the football.

If you've seen evidence of, or are comfortable with, his kicking game - do say!

His kicking game and game management are good. He is actually a very good kicker from hand. He is certainly no Madigan or Cipriani.


Agree about Kearney and the media. He catches the ball and runs into the nearest defender. In fairness to him, he is a very reliable player but we need more than that these days. I think after seeing what an attacking fullback can do, at the weekend, Leinster fans won't be calling too loudly to bring him back in.

 

[munstermuffin]

At the start of November it wasn't even a debate; Carbery all the way. Byrne's form has skyrocketed since then as he's grown more comfortable in the role. I still think Carbery is the better 10. Whether putting him at 10 and leaving Byrne as his backup is the best use of resources is debatable. Carbery at 15 with Byrne at 10 long term is probably best for Leinster but would it keep the Athy man happy? It's a lovely position to be in because 12 months ago it was looking like Cathal Marsh and a very bare cupboard behind Johnny Sexton for Leinster.

That's the thing does Joey want to be a 10 or what. I don't think I've heard him either way saying BUT I would say he has potential to be a serious 15 in the mould of Nacewa. Byrne probably has the higher ceiling as a 10 but again that may be wrong assessment but as you say it's more having 2 good option than pick the better of 2 poor guys

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

While I haven't seen every game he's played, I haven't seen him do much in the way of tactical kicking. Look no further than Ian Madigan or Danny Cipriani to see how limiting it can be if your 10 can only really run the football.

As I stated, at the start of November it wasn't even a debate. Carbery had started in Europe and regularly in the league and been in terrific form. Byrne only really got his break in December against Northampton and has grown immensely in confidence since then.

Carbery has been inconsistent off the tee so far which is where Byrne has the edge. Byrne is also brilliant at picking out teammates with crossfield kicks which means defences must spread across whole width of the field, opening space inside for attackers elsewhere. I'd say Carbery has the edge in passing ability, reading defences and as a running threat.