[Six Nations 2018] Round 1: Italy Vs England (04/02/2018)

[Hap]

So, as I wrote here few days ago, maybe we are starting to see some positive signals of the fact COS is working properly.
Actually I was terrified for the first 10 minutes where we were like paralized and England looked like having 30 men on the pitch.

I think you won the match (of course because you're way better than us in each aspect of the game) in particular at the breakdown where we havn't been able to slow you down. That caused your attack to run full throttle, really impressively, and italian defence struggled to keep that pace.
You dominated there, kept your bd fast and slowed down ours.
Second thing is discipline. We solved problems for you too many times in your 22s with silly penalties and I'm sure you don't need these gifts
Third: scrum. COS insists with dynamic and relative light 2nd rows for 2 reasons: compete better in open field and the lack of alternatives at this level. But then we paid it in the scrums where Lovotti and Ghiraldini have been destroied. We really need to fix this or we became too fragile.

Anyway, I'm happy about our tries and how they came out from: you can see the preparation, the structure of the play, the brain they used. They weren't the usual sloppy tries in the garbage time, or a casual intercept somehow, we stayed in the match with dignity for 70 minutes.
I really liked Allan, Negri and the 2 best italians Sunday Minozzi and Boni. Hope that COS will make them start against Ireland.
Keep on with the hard work and we'll see.

 

[Which Tyler]

Well, looks like Hughes is back anyway - so that ends that discussion.
Anything other than Robshaw, Simmonds, Hughes with Mercer/Underhill on the bench is madness (though I'd allow for Underhill starting being only mildly so).

Otherwise Wigglesworth in for Youngs and LCD in for Dunn

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Wiggles.

****.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Well, looks like Hughes is back anyway - so that ends that discussion.

Not so fast, WT. I'm reading that Hughes is only in camp so his injury can be assessed and is unlikely to play any part at the weekend. Would make sense, but always the possibility of mind games.....

 

[Which Tyler]

Dammit!
Why bring him instead of someone who's available to play? Surely you bring him in on too of everyone else?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Dammit!
Why bring him instead of someone who's available to play? Surely you bring him in on too of everyone else?

That's what I was thinking,
There's no point wasting a squad spot on him if he's only in rehab - I doubt Wasps mind him doing rehab with the England doctors/physios over their own staff, so just have him there informally.

 

[Maverick1987]

England have 1 single world class player; who is a very specific type of #8

Do you really think we only have one world class player ? I think it's quite a contentious issue anyway but I'll bite . For me we have a lot of players that would fall in the "World Class " or very close to it !

Farrell, Daly, Watson, both Vunipolas, Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury . Although as a group the English love to underplay everything and have a whinge so I'm not surprised ! Haha

 

[MikeTheNative]

Do you really think we only have one world class player ? I think it's quite a contentious issue anyway but I'll bite . For me we have a lot of players that would fall in the "World Class " or very close to it !

Farrell, Daly, Watson, both Vunipolas, Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury . Although as a group the English love to underplay everything and have a whinge so I'm not surprised ! Haha

I'm pretty sure he means only one world class 8.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm pretty sure I simply have a narrower description of "world class"; the debate on that has been running for a good 70 years... and counting.

For my money "World class" would be representing planet Earth at the Rugby Galactic Cup. Top 2 in the world for their position (or at least, a very good argument could be made)
What you call "World Class" is what I call "Good International Player"

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'm pretty sure I simply have a narrower description of "world class"; the debate on that has been running for a good 70 years... and counting.

For my money "World class" would be representing planet Earth at the Rugby Galactic Cup. Top 2 in the world for their position (or at least, a very good argument could be made)
What you call "World Class" is what I call "Good International Player"

In that case I'd still say Mako, at least one of our second rows as well as maybe Faz and Daly/Watson fall into that category.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Farrell is definitely world class. I don't see a 12 who comes close to him in the world right now.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ah, this old chestnut!

I think we have a few potential world class players, but not many actual ones. As a starter, how many of our team would get into the ABs starting XV?

Binny's generally accepted to be world class, but I'd take Picamoles over him, and probably the Parisse and Read of a couple of years ago too.

Faz is thereabouts although styles make it hard to compare with SBW. Both are highly influential in different ways.

Lawes / Launch / Itoje over Retallick and Whitelock? The experience and the established cohesion of the kiwis for me.

Mako's definitely world class in the loose.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Ah, this old chestnut!

I think we have a few potential world class players, but not many actual ones. As a starter, how many of our team would get into the ABs starting XV?

Binny's generally accepted to be world class, but I'd take Picamoles over him, and probably the Parisse and Read of a couple of years ago too.

Faz is thereabouts although styles make it hard to compare with SBW. Both are highly influential in different ways.

Lawes / Launch / Itoje over Retallick and Whitelock? The experience and the established cohesion of the kiwis for me.

Mako's definitely world class in the loose.

Really? He's had a pretty major drop in form to the extent that he hasn't even made the French squad. Parisse will go down as one of the greatest players of all time but he's started on his downhill slope and I'd argue the same is beginning to be true for Read. IMO a fully fit Binny is the best 8 on the planet with only Read and Faletau on similar levels. At only 25 years old he's only going to get better too.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

OK, fair enough. Haven't seen much of Picamoles this season, but i'd certainly have taken the Picamoles of the pretty recent past. But as with Faz / SBW it's partly a matter of style preferences.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Finally watched the game, thought we done quite well. Like most things we'll see in time how good it was with Italy's other results in the tournament.
I liked Ford and Farrell, thought Farrell also helped Ford out by running some much better lines. Must have been nice for Ford to have the 12 actually fix defenders .
Thought the pack did okay, Vunipola is missing though.
Enjoyed some of the interplay between players and hopefully we can get better for Wales.

Also Italy were good fun to watch, thought the backs looked quite direct and had a plan. Their 10/12/13/15 could be great if they stick together.

 

[Maverick1987]

I'm pretty sure I simply have a narrower description of "world class"; the debate on that has been running for a good 70 years... and counting.

For my money "World class" would be representing planet Earth at the Rugby Galactic Cup. Top 2 in the world for their position (or at least, a very good argument could be made)
What you call "World Class" is what I call "Good International Player"

That doesn't work and I'll tell you why .....

There's will be periods in time where there might be numerous great players in any one position . For example at number 8 at the moment . By your reckoning only 2 of Read, Stander, Billy V and Faletau can be world class . Where as I say they are all World Class ...... World Class for me signifies a consistently brilliant level of performance . For me there's plenty of players in the England team that do that regularly

 

[Maverick1987]

Lawes / Launch / Itoje over Retallick and Whitelock? The experience and the established cohesion of the kiwis for me

So in other words our locks can't be World Class until they have 80+ caps and a lock partner with them for all those caps ? That's rubbish if you ask me . Lawes and Launchbury have amazing cohesion and Itoje is a really special player . All whom are World Class although I wouldn't be bothered if no one ever said the phrase "World Class" again tbh . It's mostly used by anyone who isn't English to discredit our players ..... (most of whom "like" the rugby banter page on Facebook lol)

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

That doesn't work and I'll tell you why .....

There's will be periods in time where there might be numerous great players in any one position . For example at number 8 at the moment . By your reckoning only 2 of Read, Stander, Billy V and Faletau can be world class . Where as I say they are all World Class ...... World Class for me signifies a consistently brilliant level of performance . For me there's plenty of players in the England team that do that regularly

EJ has said that he defines world class as being someone who gives a 7-8+/10 performance every time they go out on the field. At the time he said that, he also said that our only world class players were Farrell and BillyV. I'd argue that now we've increased to having ~10 players who fall into that bracket; those being Mako, Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, maybe Kruis, Billy, Farrell, Daly, Watson as well as maybe JJ.

 

[Maverick1987]

EJ has said that he defines world class as being someone who gives a 7-8+/10 performance every time they go out on the field. At the time he said that, he also said that our only world class players were Farrell and BillyV. I'd argue that now we've increased to having ~10 players who fall into that bracket; those being Mako, Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, maybe Kruis, Billy, Farrell, Daly, Watson as well as maybe JJ.

Yeh I'd completely agree with that .

You see I don't buy the whole "would they get in the ABs team" either ...... my thinking of it is if the kiwis didn't have Whitelock but had Itoje/Lawes/Launchbury would they be any worse off ?

 

[Nubiwan]

Farrell is definitely world class. I don't see a 12 who comes close to him in the world right now.

He kicks better than any Southern Hemisphere 10 as well. Them lads are wanton with goal kicking.