Sonny Bill Williams to fight for New Zealand Heavyweight ***le

[Sam Owen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrzcMagsWUM

Seems like a pretty good bloke to me. And he has never appeared boring in an interview.

Yeah thats great stuff, it is one of those requirement things for Ritchie but its just great for him to see upclose how much young members of his country look up to him and as well as older people all over. Good bloke no doubt.

As for Sonny, big fan of his rugby. I dont like his boxing though, he one of the worst boxers I take my time out to watch???...its the SBW effect. However hes the champ so....I got to give it up to Sonny.

 

[Gavin]

Ritchies boring. Apart from rugby, Ritchies boring. Good rugby captain, champion rugby player, everything else good about him is the requirement of an All Black captain

Richie is a descent individual (not that SBW isn't but from media etc. Richie seems nicer). Saying that he is boring is unfair. The man has put his life and soul into being an All Black and has done very little else, it's admirable in this day and age; I could never see SBW being given the captaincy for example.

It cannot be said that SBW has the talent and he likes to show it off (perhaps that is more due to the influences on him, like his manager), but if anyone else tried to get into boxing, like he did, they would have a very tough time because he has the 'name'. Either way I would like his next fight to be against someone who is a substantial boxer because it would be interesting to see how he goes against a real fighter.

 

[Darwin]

Rugby:
Honestly, can you put your hand on your heart and say that guy was deserving of a RWC medal based on his ability?
I certainly can't.
Yes, he has had his moments on the rugby field where he has looked good, but inversely- at times his play (and especially his defence) has looked downright awful.

Sam,

You're entitled to your opinion on SBW (and you obviously love the guy and hey, that's your perogative) but sorry mate- he isn't at the standard of the current midfielders the ABs have at their disposal.

I'm not SBW's biggest fan, and I certainly don't buy into the ridiculous hype surrounding him, but I can't agree at all with this particular analysis. There is no doubt that SBW deserved a spot in the AB's RWC squad, as he is clearly the second best 12 in the country. If you disagree with this, who would you have taken in his place? SBW was the form 12 in the entire competition over the first half of the tournament, but faded a bit over the later half of the competition (due to injuries / perhaps concentrating a bit too much on boxing), but was still playing at a pretty high level. Nonu was rightly given the AB's starting jersey during the key AB's games, but SBW was clearly the second best option if Nonu had been injured. I personally wasn't a fan of having SBW on the bench during the key RWC games (I would have preferred Toeava's versatility), and found the decision to start him on the wing against Argentina in the semi-final slightly bizarre, but I still think he clearly warranted a place in the squad.

I'm not sure why you think his defense has been awful - indeed it has generally been one of his strong points! His work-rate on defense has been top notch, and when he's been in position to make the tackle he's almost invariably made it. He has been caught out of position at times on defense, but this can happen to most players (especially players new to the game) - indeed Dusautoirs try in the final was due to Nonu being caught out of position in defense (by not coming up in the line fast enough). I would rate his defensive ability at least as good - if not even slightly better - than Nonu's. My biggest criticism of SBW as a rugby player is the fact he seldom hits the line at full pace - he often just jogs up to the line. This means the defense doesn't have to fully commit to him, hence they can cover the man that he is offloading too. On the odd occasion that he hits the line at pace he can be incredibly effective. The defense has to fully commit to him - if they don't he goes straight through, if they do he can offload to a player in a gap. If he could stick with rugby I think he has the potential to be a truly world class player, but I don't think we will ever get the chance to see this...

 

[Sam Owen]

Richie is a descent individual (not that SBW isn't but from media etc. Richie seems nicer). Saying that he is boring is unfair.

Should I lie about how I feel about Ritchie to make it....fair?

I say how I feel. I just simply find Sonny more entertaining to watch, be it on the field or the ring. Im a big fan of Ritchie as well when hes playing his position and thats about it.

Either way I would like his next fight to be against someone who is a substantial boxer because it would be interesting to see how he goes against a real fighter.

Clarence Tillman is a real fighter, he's been fighting for years. He aint got the best record but he aint no stranger to danger. Either that left hook got him good (which Im not sure about) or he (Tillman) took a dive. Im not sure if they still got videos on youtube of Tillman when he was fighting over in the states years and years ago but yeah hes been in the game quite awhile.

 

[UilamOsa]

But look at the real Superstars of NZ sport over the years. The likes of Hadlee, Lomu, Fitzpatrick, McCaw, Carter, Snell, Halberg, Meads etc and most recently Benji Marshall. Look at the way they carry themselves, and the mana they have in the public eye.
Their behaviour and attitude is what I am trying to reference here. If SBW behaved more like them he would have the whole of NZ behind him.
People say that NZers have a "tall poppy syndrome" where we will try and cut people down if they get too big.
I would argue that that perception isn't true.
We love our high achievers. Look at the love for the likes of Peter Jackson, Peter Blake, etc. The public love those guys.
We just don't like those who appear to lack integrity.

Lomu - Girlfriend stealer
Benji Marshall - Can't handle being compared to Darren Lockyer.

I'm not SBW's biggest fan, and I certainly don't buy into the ridiculous hype surrounding him, but I can't agree at all with this particular analysis. There is no doubt that SBW deserved a spot in the AB's RWC squad, as he is clearly the second best 12 in the country. If you disagree with this, who would you have taken in his place? SBW was the form 12 in the entire competition over the first half of the tournament, but faded a bit over the later half of the competition (due to injuries / perhaps concentrating a bit too much on boxing), but was still playing at a pretty high level. Nonu was rightly given the AB's starting jersey during the key AB's games, but SBW was clearly the second best option if Nonu had been injured. I personally wasn't a fan of having SBW on the bench during the key RWC games (I would have preferred Toeava's versatility), and found the decision to start him on the wing against Argentina in the semi-final slightly bizarre, but I still think he clearly warranted a place in the squad.

I'm not sure why you think his defense has been awful - indeed it has generally been one of his strong points! His work-rate on defense has been top notch, and when he's been in position to make the tackle he's almost invariably made it. He has been caught out of position at times on defense, but this can happen to most players (especially players new to the game) - indeed Dusautoirs try in the final was due to Nonu being caught out of position in defense (by not coming up in the line fast enough). I would rate his defensive ability at least as good - if not even slightly better - than Nonu's. My biggest criticism of SBW as a rugby player is the fact he seldom hits the line at full pace - he often just jogs up to the line. This means the defense doesn't have to fully commit to him, hence they can cover the man that he is offloading too. On the odd occasion that he hits the line at pace he can be incredibly effective. The defense has to fully commit to him - if they don't he goes straight through, if they do he can offload to a player in a gap. If he could stick with rugby I think he has the potential to be a truly world class player, but I don't think we will ever get the chance to see this...

Richard Kahui. Kahui & Smith? Could be the Smartest Midfield combo in NZ.

Also, I agree with you. One of the most frustrating things was the pace he hit the line at. Given his size and athleticism, how he didn't even manage to seriously damage some players by just running at them rather than running to the side of them...let's just say it irked me. Maybe this year will change.

SBW is a genuinely nice guy. He's just choosing to put what he wants ahead of what everyone else wants - which is okay. The problem is that he's becoming a Superstar Jack of All Trades rather than a Superstar Master of One. Too consider him a serious boxer is too state that Michael Jordan was a serious Baseballer.

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

Lomu - Girlfriend stealer
Benji Marshall - Can't handle being compared to Darren Lockyer.

You mentioned gf stealer. Who hear heard that some members of the blacksticks have tweeted about him (SonnyBill) taking one of their development players gf (Matthew Ridge's daughter)

 

[William18]

Should I lie about how I feel about Ritchie to make it....fair?

I say how I feel. I just simply find Sonny more entertaining to watch, be it on the field or the ring. Im a big fan of Ritchie as well when hes playing his position and thats about it.



Clarence Tillman is a real fighter, he's been fighting for years. He aint got the best record but he ain t no stranger to danger. Either that left hook got him good (which Im not sure about) or he (Tillman) took a dive. Im not sure if they still got videos on youtube of Tillman when he was fighting over in the states years and years ago but yeah hes been in the game quite awhile.

Obviously SBW is more interesting or exciting than McCaw. He is more exciting on the field than McCaw because of the position he plays (Cullen was also far more exciting than Meads). The reason you think McCaw is boring is because as captain he can't afford to make outlandish statements or do crazy things. The All Blacks captain is about far more than who is the best leader on the field. A captain unpopular among the general public just wouldn't last.

Your posts sound like you only respect McCaw as a great openside flanker and not as an individual who is down to earth, hard working and a genuinely nice guy. What does being interesting matter anyway? Mike Tyson was an interesting guy, far more so than someone like Evander Holyfield. I would far rather meet McCaw than SBW is all I'd say.

And there's no way Tillman took a dive. He was all over the place.

 

[Darwin]

Richard Kahui. Kahui & Smith? Could be the Smartest Midfield combo in NZ.

Also, I agree with you. One of the most frustrating things was the pace he hit the line at. Given his size and athleticism, how he didn't even manage to seriously damage some players by just running at them rather than running to the side of them...let's just say it irked me. Maybe this year will change.

While I agree that Kahui and Smith have the potential to be a quality midfield combo, Kahui has almost no experiece what-so-ever at 12 (at either ITM Cup or Super Rugby level). Indeed a quick look through his record shows that he has played only a single game at 12 (versus the Stormers in 2008). While I think he would probably do ok in the 12 jersey, he is far from a proven performer at 12. In any case he was included in the RWC squad (and did a brilliant job on the wing), so wasn't as though SBW took his spot. FlukeArtist was suggesting that SBW didn't warrant a place in the RWC squad based on his ability, so I was wondering which 12 outside the RWC squad he would have preferred..

 

[Sam Owen]

Your posts sound like you only respect McCaw as a great openside flanker and not as an individual who is down to earth, hard working and a genuinely nice guy.

Hmm???....I never once mentioned "down to earth, hard working and a genuinely nice guy" and somehow it sounds like Ive said that. Can you provide the post where it sounds like I said that please?....once more, if I respect someones ability to play rugby it doesnt mean I have to respect them as a person as well, OMG!!...."my precious" - Gollum

Your posts sound like you only respect McCaw as a great openside flanker.

Yeah thats because I dont really know Ritchie aye William. You probably one of his good friends. Like I said before I speak how I feel and thats what you should do on a forum I guess, what do you think?...

Look Im sure Ritchie is a great guy but as role model there are things that you have to do. Just like the Queen has to wave to the people.

What does being interesting matter anyway?

Thats what happends when you jump into the discussion late. You dont know how things got to where they are. You miss the all important point of origin.

I would far rather meet McCaw than SBW is all I'd say.

Oh many people would love to meet Ritchie. I would love to meet both, I'd prefer to meet Sonny ahead of Ritchie but thats my preference. You would rather meet Ritchie, thats your preference and I respect that just like I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion aye William, what do you think?..(wish people could do the same for me lol).

And there's no way Tillman took a dive. He was all over the place.

Yeah..whether Sonny really stunned him with that left hook, I dont know. Clarence does like to bob to his right a lot and Sonny might've been made aware of this, so he might've made an adjustment to his left hook/left uppercut punch, lowering it slightly. If that was the case, it was good boxing from Sonny. After that, the finishing got too messy. I still dont know about Sonny and his boxing.

 

[nickdnz]

While I agree that Kahui and Smith have the potential to be a quality midfield combo, Kahui has almost no experiece what-so-ever at 12 (at either ITM Cup or Super Rugby level). Indeed a quick look through his record shows that he has played only a single game at 12 (versus the Stormers in 2008). While I think he would probably do ok in the 12 jersey, he is far from a proven performer at 12. In any case he was included in the RWC squad (and did a brilliant job on the wing), so wasn't as though SBW took his spot. FlukeArtist was suggesting that SBW didn't warrant a place in the RWC squad based on his ability, so I was wondering which 12 outside the RWC squad he would have preferred..

Hosea Gear. He's as much an inside centre as Sonny Bill Williams is a winger!

 

[William18]

Hmm???....I never once mentioned "down to earth, hard working and a genuinely nice guy" and somehow it sounds like Ive said that. Can you provide the post where it sounds like I said that please?....once more, if I respect someones ability to play rugby it doesnt mean I have to respect them as a person as well, OMG!!...."my precious" - Gollum



Yeah thats because I dont really know Ritchie aye William. You probably one of his good friends. Like I said before I speak how I feel and thats what you should do on a forum I guess, what do you think?...

Look Im sure Ritchie is a great guy but as role model there are things that you have to do. Just like the Queen has to wave to the people.




Thats what happends when you jump into the discussion late. You dont know how things got to where they are. You miss the all important point of origin.



Oh many people would love to meet Ritchie. I would love to meet both, I'd prefer to meet Sonny ahead of Ritchie but thats my preference. You would rather meet Ritchie, thats your preference and I respect that just like I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion aye William, what do you think?..(wish people could do the same for me lol).



Yeah..whether Sonny really stunned him with that left hook, I dont know. Clarence does like to bob to his right a lot and Sonny might've been made aware of this, so he might've made an adjustment to his left hook/left uppercut punch, lowering it slightly. If that was the case, it was good boxing from Sonny. After that, the finishing got too messy. I still dont know about Sonny and his boxing.

I never said you said those things. FlukeArtist pointed out the positive attributes which McCaw exhibits both on and off the field and you just dismissed him as boring. This suggests that you didn't respect McCaw for holding these personality traits. If you don't want to respect him off the field then that is fine. My point is that I do respect him both on and off the field and I don't think it's fair to dismiss someone as boring simply because they seem to be a good guy.

As I understand it the point of origin was FlukeArtist saying how great McCaw is and you saying McCaw is boring. I was saying that if McCaw is boring then it does not make me want to be interesting.

When did I say you weren't entitled to your opinion? I'm all for freedom of speech. However, you can't expect your statements not to be critiqued. I would respect someone's right to believe the Communist Party should rule New Zealand but I would then say why I disagree with them. Your allowed to prefer SBW over McCaw or call McCaw boring or whatever if you want but you can't expect me not to debate the issue with you.

 

[Darwin]

Hosea Gear. He's as much an inside centre as Sonny Bill Williams is a winger!

I know you would have taken Gear - indeed I'm sure he would have been the first player you would have picked! While I agree with your statement, I'm still glad we took genuine midfield cover in the the form of SBW, as I remember 1999, 2003, and 2007 when, due to injuries/bizarre selection policies, we ended up playing an outside back in the midfield in crucial matches!

 

[Sam Owen]

I never said you said those things.

No you didnt say that, but you say thats what I was sounding like.

Your posts sound like you only respect McCaw as a great openside flanker and not as an individual who is down to earth, hard working and a genuinely nice guy.

And I never said that. I just said how I feel that I found him boring. To be honest I dont care how positive Ritchie is off the field, he's a role model All Black captain, he is supposed to be the good guy for the sake of kiwi children. All I care about it is what he does on the field. Off the field, I dont care, as long as he aint no murderer, rapist or paedophile.

When did I say you weren't entitled to your opinion? I'm all for freedom of speech.

See the thing is, I acknowledge that you are entitled to your opinion by saying things like 'thats your preference' but you DONT do the same back. I was just voicing my opinion and you didnt even say 'well thats your opinion'. See I show respect for others opinions and thats the difference between you and me. Look at your initial post in to this debate, show me where you acknowledged that I was entitled to my own opinion....

Obviously SBW is more interesting or exciting than McCaw. He is more exciting on the field than McCaw because of the position he plays (Cullen was also far more exciting than Meads). The reason you think McCaw is boring is because as captain he can't afford to make outlandish statements or do crazy things. The All Blacks captain is about far more than who is the best leader on the field. A captain unpopular among the general public just wouldn't last.

Your posts sound like you only respect McCaw as a great openside flanker and not as an individual who is down to earth, hard working and a genuinely nice guy. What does being interesting matter anyway? Mike Tyson was an interesting guy, far more so than someone like Evander Holyfield. I would far rather meet McCaw than SBW is all I'd say.

You found it?....no. That was your post, when I read it it was like 'hey I only said how I felt'.

Ahh I thought you wouldnt be able to provide any proof of your claims but however I do. This post here which is in this thread, one of the posts being traded from me and Flukeys traded posts is my proof that I do respect they guy. This post underneath....

Yeah thats great stuff, it is one of those requirement things for Ritchie but its just great for him to see upclose how much young members of his country look up to him and as well as older people all over. Good bloke no doubt.

You know, it sounds so silly to me we are debating my honest opinion that I find Ritchie boring.

 

[nickdnz]

How about we get back on topic?

Sam, you do some boxing correct? What impact do you feel SBW has had on the sport in NZ? :mellow:

 

[Sam Owen]

How about we get back on topic?

Sam, you do some boxing correct? What impact do you feel SBW has had on the sport in NZ? :mellow:

I dont know if SBWS camp (Mundine and co.) had foreseen NZs heavyweight division as a real chance of success and a good place for Sonny to cash in. But they definitely knew that Sonny was big in NZ with his influence on the rugger and leaguie fans. They knew money was to be made.

Me personally, I think Sonny makes professional boxing in New Zealand look easy. I remember a mate of mine saying 'geez anyone can be NZ champ if Sonny is'. NZs elite amateur heavyweight Joe Parker could take the ***le. There is a transition of course with amateur boxing to pro but I think Joe could race across that bridge. What Im trying to say is that I dont think SBW being 'NZs heavyweight champion' has any real substance to it, but then again when I look at the division in NZ, the level of skill, the quality of athleticism, the numbers..its all very limited. I mean no disrespect to NZ heavyweight boxers but its the way I see it. Sonny has in a way shown up the NZ heavyweight division as lacklustre, apart from guys like Welliver, Cameron and Tua of course.

I think Sonny has had a hollywood type impact on the sport of boxing here in New Zealand. Positive in the sense that boxing is kept alive with Sonny and not restricted to Shane Cameron and David Tua. As well as showing young kiwis that can box and score tries, to keep their options open.

Right now, Sonny being the champ is unbelievable. It now seems like the division is a circus. Sonnys boxing looked a lot better against Tillman but then again Tillman wasnt throwing a lot for us to see Sonny defend and it was only one round.

 

[nickdnz]

I dont know if SBWS camp (Mundine and co.) had foreseen NZs heavyweight division as a real chance of success and a good place for Sonny to cash in. But they definitely knew that Sonny was big in NZ with his influence on the rugger and leaguie fans. They knew money was to be made.

Me personally, I think Sonny makes professional boxing in New Zealand look easy. I remember a mate of mine saying 'geez anyone can be NZ champ if Sonny is'. NZs elite amateur heavyweight Joe Parker could take the ***le. There is a transition of course with amateur boxing to pro but I think Joe could race across that bridge. What Im trying to say is that I dont think SBW being 'NZs heavyweight champion' has any real substance to it, but then again when I look at the division in NZ, the level of skill, the quality of athleticism, the numbers..its all very limited. I mean no disrespect to NZ heavyweight boxers but its the way I see it. Sonny has in a way shown up the NZ heavyweight division as lacklustre, apart from guys like Welliver, Cameron and Tua of course.

I think Sonny has had a hollywood type impact on the sport of boxing here in New Zealand. Positive in the sense that boxing is kept alive with Sonny and not restricted to Shane Cameron and David Tua. As well as showing young kiwis that can box and score tries, to keep their options open.

Right now, Sonny being the champ is unbelievable. It now seems like the division is a circus. Sonnys boxing looked a lot better against Tillman but then again Tillman wasnt throwing a lot for us to see Sonny defend and it was only one round.

Thanks Sam, I'd agree with all of that.

 

[Dizzy]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/6418544/Sonny-Bill-Williams-under-pressure-to-face-top-pro

Well I guess you guys are going to get your wish.

And I'll be the first one to say, that Sonny won't get demolished like most of you will be predicting. He will put up a good fight and I'll even have the audacity to back him with a victory....

I can't wait.

 

[UilamOsa]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/6418544/Sonny-Bill-Williams-under-pressure-to-face-top-pro

Well I guess you guys are going to get your wish.

And I'll be the first one to say, that Sonny won't get demolished like most of you will be predicting. He will put up a good fight and I'll even have the audacity to back him with a victory....

I can't wait.

I can't see Nasser & Mundine letting him get that far. I call "injury" before it eventuates. I hope against hope that I'm wrong.

To put it in perspective - If Monty Betham didn't want to stick around to go toe to toe with Cameron in the fight for life, then what chance SBW?

SBW's a better fighter then he was before, but then there are fighters and then there are Boxers.


IF it happens, It'll be worth paying the pay per view.


SBW's last match I went for a run. (lasted longer than all his fights combined)

 

[nickdnz]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/6418544/Sonny-Bill-Williams-under-pressure-to-face-top-pro

Well I guess you guys are going to get your wish.

And I'll be the first one to say, that Sonny won't get demolished like most of you will be predicting. He will put up a good fight and I'll even have the audacity to back him with a victory....

I can't wait.

Then I guess you don't watch much boxing...

SBW isn't in the same ball park as Cameron or Barrett.

 

[Dizzy]

its not that I don't watch boxing Nick, it's just that, no matter what SBW does, people still doubt him... He's never given any credit whatsoever, yet every time hes been due to have a fight, people come out saying hes going to get knocked out/lose... And then when he wins by knockout, they change their tone and say, it was set-up/he paid him to take a fall/the guy was a nobody...

I'm just not one to doubt SBW anymore..
And Cameron couldn't even touch Betham, Betham actually got under his skin and Cameron couldn't handle it.