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South Africa vs British and Irish Lions - Test 2

ncurd

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Fairish point but if his arguments had no substance his motives would be irrelevant. I do grant you that is he is trying to influence the ref (at least i believe he is), but he is trying and can only do because WR left a vacuum the size of a continent there in terms of interpretation.
Are the refs gonna call the off-sides at ruck this game? Who the **** knows?
Scrums? Let's flip a coin.
Tackles? Let's see how the refs woke up that day.

That level of uncertainty has consequences. These are some of those. WR created the breeding ground for these things to flourish. Now they cry foul when their own creations goes after them?
Don't expect my sympathy. In fact, i hope it grows.


I am not particularly happy about the consequences RE's words have on the tour. I am very excited about the consequences they could (potentially) have on WR.
The problem is how do you handle it? Brian Moore raised it earlier in the day Referee's use to have pre match briefings with coaches. The point being to explain any specific they were looking at and how they wanted the game to be played. Coaches started using the sessions to influence the ref by showing them video of the opposition and their interpretation telling the ref how to manage the game. So they had to be ditched.

Playing the ref and understanding their view of the game because rugby is a complicated to officiate has always been a apart of rugby. You'll never get standardised officiating especially at international level because of cultural influences on how the game is played. You think most French refs naturally turn out that rubbish? But you go to domestic levels and you'll find it more consistent the top English refs even though they aren't as good will manage a game more or less like Barnes because that's how they've been taught. Someone in NZ is taught by entirely different people and thus have another style.

We get the same in my industry there are usually 50 ways solve a problem and a person influences will likely dictate how that they decide to proceed. Its the same with all complex decision making which a lot of calls in rugby are.

Point is you can't fix it, you'll always get bum calls (and they should be called out but as noted there's only really one from the previous match) most refs are pretty consistent within a match. And the next ref will probably be to just not between refs.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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The problem is how do you handle it?
No, it's not just that. That is arguably the best-case scenario. If at least they were consistent that would eventually balance out evnetually, but no.

Coaches started using the sessions to influence the ref by showing them video of the opposition and their interpretation telling the ref how to manage the game. So they had to be ditched.
********. They didn't have to ditch that, they chose to. Not quite the same.
You know what? Make those sessions public. Open them. You'd educate the audience.

Playing the ref and understanding their view of the game because rugby is a complicated to officiate has always been a apart of rugby.
Nonsense. The lack of clarity is there by design, not because of the complexity of the game itself. The time used to give an advantage is one of the best examples. It's at the ref's discretion when it could be easily stipulated and be dealt with. It's not difficult to manage, they chose to make it difficult. Again, not quite the same.

Point is you can't fix it, you'll always get bum calls (and they should be called out but as noted there's only really one from the previous match) most refs are pretty consistent within a match. And the next ref will probably be to just not between refs.
Ridiculous. You can't fix everything, but you can improve a lot of the issues we have nowadays, from a clearer understanding of what the **** you can and cannot do when tackling to what happens at the ruck, from going for a ball in the air to flipping someone while tackling. You have journalists specialized in rugby who tweet that a tackler cannot lead with the shoulder. We've reached a level of madness that needs to be dealt with.
Same with the term 'wrapping'.


Putting everything in one bag and saying you cant fix it because you find the timing and the manner of the complaint inconvenient is just absurd.
 

Dean Cooperfield-West

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You could simplify the rules and make things more clear cut. Better yet, why not have multiple refs on the field? Have one ref watching the attacking team and a ref on the opposite side watching the defending team.
You want two refs?

What happens if they disagree? What happens if one blows when the other didn't see anything wrong and wanted a free-flowing game? That's just asking for problems.

Simplifying the rules could work. The game will end up looking like something from the 80/90s
 

Ragey Erasmus

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The thing is you can simplify the rules but the result of that is more gets left to interpretation, which is kinda the problem people are complaining about. Simpler rules also leave more room for exploitation and will invariably start a process of clarifying again and before you know it, you are back at complex rules. Rugby is a complex and dynamic game. Such a game cannot by its very nature have simple rules and maintain any of consistency in how they are applied.

I mean can you name any laws that could actually be simplified in a way that would be beneficial? It's like governments forever saying they will simplify laws and tax systems before realising it didn't achieve what they wanted. The complexity of the laws is not the issue, it's the inherent difficulty of reffing the game that is the issue. Short of some sort of AI with cameras all over the place that can see every infringement, we will never get that.

On another note, it would be interesting if we ever did train AI to function as refs.
 

bargepole

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You could simplify the rules and make things more clear cut. Better yet, why not have multiple refs on the field?
Yes, and while you're at it, reduce the teams to 11 players a side, allow one forward pass in each move, and stop the game whenever a ball carrier is tackled. Also allow a specialist kicker to come off the bench for any place kicks. Oh hang on, isn't there already a version where they do all that???
 

Le Frére Alpha

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Two refs is a good idea, or even allowing touch judges make a call without having to consult the ref on something clear cut is a good idea to be honest. There's far too much going on for one ref to see.
 

AlRums

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The fans will never accept non-neutral refs. Take the Welsh. I don't think they've ever lost a match by not play well enough. They're always citing a dodgy call or an anti-Welsh ref

Heck, strip out the bad refereeing and they'll tell you they would have won every WC going
Ditto English fans, just look at the threads here when England lost, lots of ref complaints
 
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Umaga's Witness

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You want two refs?

What happens if they disagree? What happens if one blows when the other didn't see anything wrong and wanted a free-flowing game? That's just asking for problems.

Simplifying the rules could work. The game will end up looking like something from the 80/90s
Youd just need to make sure the refs had clearly defined and mutually exclusive roles

eg one ref for the breakdown, one fir everything else

hipefully Technology can soon get to the point of helping a tmo do it. The tmo would just need a slider that they could control in a touch screen which showed the offside line based on where they touch the screen, ie a line parallel to the try line. And, even better, highlighted all players that were on one side of that line when the tmo pressed a button.
 

Umaga's Witness

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Fairish point but if his arguments had no substance his motives would be irrelevant. I do grant you that is he is trying to influence the ref (at least i believe he is), but he is trying and can only do because WR left a vacuum the size of a continent there in terms of interpretation.
Are the refs gonna call the off-sides at ruck this game? Who the **** knows?
Scrums? Let's flip a coin.
Tackles? Let's see how the refs woke up that day.

That level of uncertainty has consequences. These are some of those. WR created the breeding ground for these things to flourish. Now they cry foul when their own creations goes after them?
Don't expect my sympathy. In fact, i hope it grows.


I am not particularly happy about the consequences RE's words have on the tour. I am very excited about the consequences they could (potentially) have on WR.
Its a cruel irony that WR leaves the interpretation of the laws (and which ones to focus on or even bother with) open so they have more flex on how to ref, depending on what they think will create a more entertaining game; yet, theyre making it less entertaining.
 

Don't Skip Leg Day

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Some terrible ideas on here. Most games I watch (in fact all) are reffed slightly differently. WR should work on that before we add another ref or let an AI run things. There is a marked difference in the breakdown between the north and south and that would be a good area to focus on.
 

Reiser99

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Let's just have a free for all. Two teams out on the pitch, get a cannon, that spins and randomly shoots the ball somewhere on the pitch. Then play!
 

TRF_stormer2010

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I think the way forward is referees should at least listen to captains more. Get reviews in if necessary. There is the argument that it'll slow the game down but there have been many games played where the captains have an appeal. If they are successful they keep it otherwise they lose it which curbs misuse. It still does slow the game down somewhat but many a missed foul play or errors regarding tries have been brought to bare this year because of it which IMO is more attractive than simply relying on the referee to get it all 100% in real time.

At the very least though- and here I am getting back to last week's game again- at the very least, listen to our captain when he approaches you- he is not some school boy #9 chirping in your ear to be shooed away like they did. Or treat both teams' captains the same way and keep it so its the captains only or open it up to all players. Whichever way you go, let both teams play the same game.

On another note, I'm surprised the WP-Bulls clash for tonight hasn't been moved to either Newlands (which has not been demolished and will probably stand for a good while yet as there is a lot of red tape involved) or Pretoria (who cares about home advantage without crowds). I just hope the pitch holds up as the groundsmen won't have any time in between matches and I don't expect the WP bulls match to be a friendly game of 15 a side 7s.
 
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Die Bokke

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Taken from the article below.


In the now-infamous ‘Teach the Japies [South Africans] a lesson’ saga, New Zealand Manager of Refereeing Development Keith Lawrence was forced to apologise to South African counterpart Freek Burger over derogatory remarks made about Burger.

An e-mail had been sent to arrange a conference call between the three Super 12 referee managers, but it contained earlier dialogue – not intended for South Africa – which had taken place between Lawrence and his Australian counterpart.

Keith Lawrence is the father of Bryce Lawrence – infamous for his error-riddled performance in the quarterfinal at the 2011 World Cup match between South Africa and Australia. The Wallabies won 11-9 in one of the most contentious matches in World Cup history, resulting in Lawrence getting death threats.

Some fans were quick to reproduce the ‘Teach the Japies a lesson’ articles from back in 2000.

Relationships between the former SANZAR (South Africa, New Zealand and Australia) partners have remained strained ever since and there is a school of thought that it reflects in refereeing performances against the Springboks.

 

Old Hooker

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I think Rassie has done this for the greater good with the purest of intentions. After all there’s no way any of his teams would ever do anything that would help them try to influence a ref during a game.

 

Duck a l'Orange

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Complaining about the ref's calls during the game is unavoidable and just human I think. Whenever I watch rugby, everything the opposition does is outrageous and any friendly infringement marginal at best.

That's just the nature of human emotion and watching sport. If after the game you can't admit it went both ways with marginal calls and mistakes - which is the nature of rugby - that's more of a problem. A demonstrably wrong decision makes that harder, but it's still just one of a hundred mistakes any ref will make.

You can complain the ref is "bad", but that should even out (perhaps not over 80 minutes) and - again - is the nature of rugby. Otherwise you're saying the ref is biased, which is a serious accusation and, (as far as I know universally at the professional level) nonsense.

TL;DR: Get over it. The ref's either bad evenly, which doesn't matter, or biased, which they aren't.
 

ncurd

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I think the way forward is referees should at least listen to captains more. Get reviews in if necessary. There is the argument that it'll slow the game down but there have been many games played where the captains have an appeal. If they are successful they keep it otherwise they lose it which curbs misuse. It still does slow the game down somewhat but many a missed foul play or errors regarding tries have been brought to bare this year because of it which IMO is more attractive than simply relying on the referee to get it all 100% in real time.

At the very least though- and here I am getting back to last week's game again- at the very least, listen to our captain when he approaches you- he is not some school boy #9 chirping in your ear to be shooed away like they did. Or treat both teams' captains the same way and keep it so its the captains only or open it up to all players. Whichever way you go, let both teams play the same game.

On another note, I'm surprised the WP-Bulls clash for tonight hasn't been moved to either Newlands (which has not been demolished and will probably stand for a good while yet as there is a lot of red tape involved) or Pretoria (who cares about home advantage without crowds). I just hope the pitch holds up as the groundsmen won't have any time in between matches and I don't expect the WP bulls match to be a friendly game of 15 a side 7s.
Reviews are complicated for a sport like Rugby every breakdown has could have potentially interpreted foul play. This leads to refs letting stuff go if they don't believe a team gained a material advantage from this offence. At which point what kind of offence do you offer reviews for? Trys are already reviewed by the TMO for anything obvious, as is potential dangerous play. I suppose you can force them to review all trys and call on dangerous play but as we saw with Watson on Saturday that doesn't stop them making absolute howlers. If you allow them to review every breakdown and offside line. May I suggest American Football (good sport nothing against it) might be further up your alley than Rugby.

As to what happened to your captain, yup AWJ is some kind of referee vortex we've all been there playing Wales where our captain (admittedly ours comes across as a twat) gets treated completely differently to Jones. Its certainly not a new phenomena.
there is a school of thought that it reflects in refereeing performances against the Springboks.
That has to be some of the most conspiratorial bullshirt I've read in sport. I dunno what Rassier put in the water down there yesterday but you've all gotten hysterical.
 

Le Frére Alpha

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Complaining about the ref's calls during the game is unavoidable and just human I think. Whenever I watch rugby, everything the opposition does is outrageous and any friendly infringement marginal at best.

That's just the nature of human emotion and watching sport. If after the game you can't admit it went both ways with marginal calls and mistakes - which is the nature of rugby - that's more of a problem. A demonstrably wrong decision makes that harder, but it's still just one of a hundred mistakes any ref will make.

You can complain the ref is "bad", but that should even out (perhaps not over 80 minutes) and - again - is the nature of rugby. Otherwise you're saying the ref is biased, which is a serious accusation and, (as far as I know universally at the professional level) nonsense.

TL;DR: Get over it. The ref's either bad evenly, which doesn't matter, or biased, which they aren't.
I agree mostly but I definitely don't think refereeing as a whole is anywhere near where it should be. You only have to look at Wayne Barnes, most would agree he's been the best ref in the world since Nige started caring more about sound bites than reffing but ask any kiwi or Irish fan and they'd laugh at you, he was consistently bad when reffing either team.

Obviously soccer is an easier sport to ref but the standard at the Euros was fantastic, there were probably less controversies in the tournament re reffing than you'd regularly get in a single rugby match.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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Its a cruel irony that WR leaves the interpretation of the laws (and which ones to focus on or even bother with) open so they have more flex on how to ref, depending on what they think will create a more entertaining game; yet, theyre making it less entertaining.

I think that is a pretty big design flaw to be honest (not yours, WR's). Not as big as the death star's but close enough.
The refs job is hard enough without even taking entertainment into account.

All of this puts the spotlight on the wrong place. It is a very, very difficult sport to officiate already. The number of things they have to oversee, and the level of detail required to do so is tremendous.
The refs are not the problem here and i am 99% sure RE knows that. His jabs at the refs are jabs at WR and not the refs themselves.

Again, this is a pretty ******* big deal: you have a world cup winning coach saying he doesn't understand the rules. And he has a point.
You sit two top tier refs to watch the same game and they can have opposing views on 20 calls. That is just not good enough. If someone like RE is lost imagine what is going through someone who just started watching the sport. He'll ran away, and understandably so.

Using seinfeld terms: this is WR problem that requires a WR solution.

I guarantee you that coaches, not all of course, but a LOT of them, are applauding RE behind closed doors. A lot of them are just sick and tired. It is exhausting to plan a game when you dont know what the calls of some of your plays will be. At all levels.
 
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