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South Africa vs British and Irish Lions - Test 2

Ragey Erasmus

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I'd be fuming if I got cited due to 8 pixels worth of zoomed in totally inconclusive evidence.
This. Whilst it is certainly possible he bit, it is also possible the South African player had his arm across his face and was pulling him back. To be the latter looks more likely. Teeth don't take being knocked too well and I can't imagine any player would look to intentionally bite a large object that's still moving and more than capable of knocking the teeth out...
 

TRF_stormer2010

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This. Whilst it is certainly possible he bit, it is also possible the South African player had his arm across his face and was pulling him back. To be the latter looks more likely. Teeth don't take being knocked too well and I can't imagine any player would look to intentionally bite a large object that's still moving and more than capable of knocking the teeth out...
That is all wild speculation of course but I get your point and speculation is all we have.

I think the frustration comes from WRs insistance on being as opaque as possible. You could make a good XV from players that could conceivably have been cited and it would be nice to have feedback as to what the processes are. But the citings have been a farce for as long as I can remember.

My hope for this tour and Rassie's rant is that WR can as a governing body realize that transparency is the way forward. Trying to hide away from scrutiny if anything is what brings the game into "disrepute".
 

Reiser99

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That is all wild speculation of course but I get your point and speculation is all we have.

I think the frustration comes from WRs insistance on being as opaque as possible. You could make a good XV from players that could conceivably have been cited and it would be nice to have feedback as to what the processes are. But the citings have been a farce for as long as I can remember.

My hope for this tour and Rassie's rant is that WR can as a governing body realize that transparency is the way forward. Trying to hide away from scrutiny if anything is what brings the game into "disrepute".
See, this is why I want to know who is on the disciplinary committee. Is it an international body or because the games are in S.A it is done by SARU? I know in the premiership, the RFU has put more effort into making the decision making process clearer, with tweets summarising the ban and any reasons for mitigation.
 

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Honestly hope Itoje plays....only player I think deserves to be banned is Kolbe. I think the knee incident looks much worse than it is. The biting incidents I think is nonsense. The boks involved would've reacted much more if bitten. Kolbe has not done anything all series so I would not miss him, and 2 times in a match is one too many. Can't wait for the 3rd game. For the Lions, they need a change at 8/9/10. i know everyone will jump on my back, but there's only one 10 on tour for them that will make the diffs(if he shapes) and that is Farrel. Take the chance, and put someone at 8 that will give Duanne a go.

PS: Biggar's soccer dive was low class...get the ass off.
 

odw26

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See, this is why I want to know who is on the disciplinary committee. Is it an international body or because the games are in S.A it is done by SARU? I know in the premiership, the RFU has put more effort into making the decision making process clearer, with tweets summarising the ban and any reasons for mitigation.
It's already been said the citing commissioner is Scott Newbold, an Australian, therefore it's done by World Rugby, not SARU.
 

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This is proper comedy stuff from World Rugby. In a single passage of play, 2 South African players would have seen red cards in the vast majority of NH games over the past year.

Kolbe's challenge on Tom Curry is negligent in the extreme. There's no attempt to lower the contact height, there's no mitigation that Curry is falling into the tackle and it's high force, to the head caused by terrible technique. Not even looked at. Though approx 1.5 seconds later Am also appears to clout Curry in the head with force. Again, not a peep. Rassie's words looming large over the officiating team no doubt.

So with all the focus on head contact what do WR decide to look at? A bite for which there's virtually no evidence.

Bravo!

Just a note, one of the things that coaches are told to watch for when managing concussion is players performance falling off. I do wonder whether Kolbe's challenge on Murray is that of a man that has been concussed and is therefore not thinking clearly. It's certainly a significant failure of judgement. Concussion protocols appear to be lip service in some cases.

Lions got what they deserved, but the micromanagement of the game by the officials in the first half was atrocious. But that's exactly what Rassie wanted. It'll kill the game if we go down that road......
 
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PS: Biggar's soccer dive was low class...get the ass off.

Biggar's dive was a disgrace, I honestly didnt think I'd see that from him, but was disgusted watching that.

Hopefully refs arent even mentioned this week, I'm unsure where the Lions go from here

So my taking so far is they have the intensity and physicality to deal with the SA attack, its the stupid penalties and allowing field position that have let SA in. You cant give them territory and not expect the rolling mauls to take charge or scoreboard pressure to build, and then they have you chasing them and compound each and every mistake because that blitz defense leading from the 13/14 on the outside just smothers you. Even more so, because they're so well drilled that you can barely get them sucked in and create overlaps without insanely high tempo, which hasnt been seen in either test match. To create this tempo though, you need top notch organisation, like Japan (highly regimented) or the NZ style, where they have roles, but its always heads up rugby,taking opportunities that arise in small parts of the match by feeding off loose play, and open space off turnovers etc. I think the latter is the only way the Lions are capable of taking them on, there's not enough time to be structured and creative on a tour like this

So looking into it, I think it's fair to say that since SA adopted the blitz defense, the only team that seem regularly able to put up points on them are the all blacks. This is because its not a basic game plan of hit over the line and try to suck in defenders for space out wide, its not a bulldozing style of rugby (despite their size too). As I've said above, tempo is absolutely key, but you also need people in key places who dont necessarily play to a set game plan, but what's in front of them at 9/10. They need to be playing more than just percentage rugby, because this has been shown to be absolutely swallowed up, no matter how quick your hands are. Unless you have a Tuilagi in midfield, each of the players from 9-13 on the SA defensive line are going to back themselves against any hefty runner, you will not create mismatches. So a varied kicking game for me is essential. For instance, if the blitz is coming up from the 13 channel to cut off wide play, why havent we seen anything akin to a crossfield kick this tour? Admittedly I havent watched de klerk behind the line sweeping, but there are always going to be at least a couple of occasions in any game where space is there for a dink or a grubber, may rely on the bounce of a ball, but we cannot simply look to play territory, maul and pick and go our way over the line. Risks are pivotal in any sport and I think we're missing opportunities because we arent taking any. Added to this, that the lack of any dainty little kicks is just allowing a free for all with the blitz, meaning even reaching the gain line when we get outside 12 is crippling
The second part of this is the offloads... the footwork from the lions in the tackle wasnt as good this week, namely I thought Lawes was much more subdued, but they also weren't playing a team quite so tired due to the stop start nature of the game. If you cant beat the set defense, you need to have the supporting lines and options on point, at least to cause a little chaos, and shift the ruck a little to stop the ball getting slowed down. I dont mean when going backwards here, but hitting the line, a handoff somewhere and a little flick to a supporting player, people like Mako, Furlong, Itoje, Curry, maybe Lawes, and Conan/Faletau all have the ability to pull this off. It wont work 100% of the time, but there needs to be some risk taken
In contrast to this, the ability to not concede a penalty from the scrum if you do knock on is huge. I actually thought Mako was alright the other day, not perfect but he didnt get demolished. Sutherland however has really struggled in both tests, and I think Wyn Jones with Mako benching will make a big difference in this regard.
I also know we have 3 lineout operators and Gatland sees this as crucial to compete, but we havent stolen much ball at all, and I would debate adding some more pace to this team than Lawes. I think Tadgh Beirne has shown a brilliant ability over the ball, a good carrier, and much better offloading ability than Lawes, a real open game player. If we can make SA play our way, rather than us playing theirs it gives a chance. But it takes risks, and it may not pay off, but for goodness sake lads, if we go out, go out with a bang
This ins Mind, I think I'd go with something along the lines of

Wyn Jones
George (Best scrummaging and darts on tour, good hands)
Furlong
Itoje
Big bloody Iain ( This man when there's a point to prove is a whole other proposition, its like waking a sleeping giant)
Beirne
Curry
Faletau (Not in form, but again the hands and offloading ability will be key)
Price
Russell (He's the only heads up 10 they'll realistically play)
Adams
Aki
Henshaw (this centre combo seems odd given what I've said, but they've played together a heck of a lot, and I think that understanding gives them an edge, hopefully stop us looking so disjointed in the centres)
Watson (Backing him to improve)
Liam Williams (Test match guy, wont give an inch, likely to deck Kolbe/De Klerk at some point in a very subtle way)

LCD
Mako
Sinckler
Lawes (Unsure about this as his scrummaging is not great, but he gets a chance)
Watson
Davies
Farrell (May even debate putting him at 12 if the Lions can open the game up, and the two pronged option for territory if up by 60/65 would be handy)
LRZ - Again, if you can keep ball in play high, this man can cause carnage

As a side note, Lions were the poor team, and I think its fair to say the officials maybe missed a couple of foul play issues. That being said, Im glad a game wasnt decided by a red card, as that would not have really endeared this series a whole lot. What I do hope is for the next game, there's just none of this stupid stuff going on. The kolbe tackle in the air, the really really borderline tackles, just a little more caution from both sides would be nice. I understand not taking a step back, but tackles like De Klerk/Kolbe/Mako are too risky and no one wants the game to be decided by one of these in the first 5 minutes

EDIT: Can we get Kearney over and just tell him to take the high balls plz?
 
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BPM

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He is really trying to erase all respect anyone might have had for him isn’t he …
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Honestly, he's an embarrassment at the moment. What happened there and what happened with Murray were not even remotely similar other than they were both players catching a high ball. There are mind games but the sort of **** he's doing is what I'd expect from an internet troll, not a coach.
You can say thats Rassie though
 

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I just love stats in rugby…..

AWJ’s 15 tackles were 50% more than the next best - Henshaw’s 10 (and 3 times as many as Itoje).

His 7 metres carried were the same as Itoje, Curry and Conan combined.
 

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Honestly, he's an embarrassment at the moment. What happened there and what happened with Murray were not even remotely similar other than they were both players catching a high ball. There are mind games but the sort of **** he's doing is what I'd expect from an internet troll, not a coach.
Gotta keep the pressure on the refs, I guess, even though SA won
Raynal refereeing is a very different prospect to a SH ref
 

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Kolbe was one of the few I thought played rubbish. Wouldn't really have cared if he was cited. Could have been a red card yes. Mako's tackle on Etsabeth could have been a red card. Itoje's knee could have been a red card. Any bite could have been a red card, of which there were 2 'apparently'. Lions are no saints thats for sure.

In any case the Lions were smashed for the last 40 minutes and we could have scored more the way we were going forward.

Play the entire Welsh back 3. Get rid of Biggar and have Farrel at 10. He can move to 12 once Marcus Smith comes on. Loose forwads also need a tweak. Conan is the most anonymous 8 ever.
 

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And Jones' various stupid remarks eg about the scummy Irish are classic Jones. It's still pathetic.
Sorry i meant we cant assume it is Rassie. There is a possibility that it is a fan. It seems convenient, we all by now know the backstory but at the same time if people are going to get worked up about something which is based on an assumption that was denied then you are taking a big gamble.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Sorry i meant we cant assume it is Rassie. There is a possibility that it is a fan. It seems convenient, we all by now know the backstory but at the same time if people are going to get worked up about something which is based on an assumption that was denied then you are taking a big gamble.
At this stage I'd be prepared to have a bet it is.
 

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Kolbe was one of the few I thought played rubbish. Wouldn't really have cared if he was cited. Could have been a red card yes. Mako's tackle on Etsabeth could have been a red card. Itoje's knee could have been a red card. Any bite could have been a red card, of which there were 2 'apparently'. Lions are no saints thats for sure.

In any case the Lions were smashed for the last 40 minutes and we could have scored more the way we were going forward.

Play the entire Welsh back 3. Get rid of Biggar and have Farrel at 10. He can move to 12 once Marcus Smith comes on. Loose forwads also need a tweak. Conan is the most anonymous 8 ever.
I agree, I would not even mind if he got cited I feel having Nkosi on the wing would be a better option for this series.
 

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Sorry i meant we cant assume it is Rassie. There is a possibility that it is a fan. It seems convenient, we all by now know the backstory but at the same time if people are going to get worked up about something which is based on an assumption that was denied then you are taking a big gamble.

I do get the feeling it isn't actually him. Someone definitely close or in the Boks mix, but not him. Also saw this from on of the SA rugby journalists:
 
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