South African Youth Player Drain

Discussion in 'Super Rugby' started by mdaclarke, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. mdaclarke

    mdaclarke Bench Player

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  3. themole25

    themole25 First XV

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    all those players can still play for south africa.

    It's no different than someone doing their degree in another country. They may play rugby in France, but if South Africa wants them to play for the Springboks and they want to play for the springboks it will happen.
     
  4. Steve-o

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    My take on this is that you can't look at rugby in a vacuum.

    Rugby players have to deal with the same macro issues that face SA. Professional rugby player exodus would probably trend along the same rates as other professions.

    If you feel your future is uncertain you look elsewhere.

    For me there are 3 major layers contributing to this
    • Economy
    • Government interference
    • Contracting with Unions
    The Rand is going down and down, with the next stop being junk status. Don't get me started on the ANC.

    The government still has its non-value adding tentacles interwoven in sport and is creating unnecessary obstacles with race based policies.

    My understanding of the Union structure in SA is that it's still very much has one foot in the amateur era and one foot in the pro era, in the way it operates at a national level. There are small Unions who have undue influence and are a drain on the system, spreading the money allocated by SA Rugby thinner. Apparently it's a legal nightmare hence why its never been truly changed. I understand that SA Rugby really wants to go the central contracting route like NZ and IRE. Probably a big reason why individual sponsorship is a key part of a player's income mix and I believe SA Rugby helps with this process.

    What can Rassie influence:

    Rassie can't do jack about the economy.

    Now that he has the love of everyone, he might have the social credit to be able to push back on the ANCs selection policies. Highly unlikely though.

    He's done really well at relationship building with the bigger Unions but it appears that is all in good faith. They have no obligation to listen as far as I understand. Doesn't solve the contracting issue though.
     
  5. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Well as discussed in another thread, just because they are going to France, doesn't mean they will ever play for France unless they get a French passport.

    So I think it's a bit too early to say if they will be a loss for SA rugby completely.

    It's unfortunate that the guys who are going, are the ones who seem to be potential springboks, but then again, they can still be called up for the Springboks. And maybe, just maybe, because we are World Cup champions now, and because a lot of the players that were part of the World Cup squad, are now leaving to play abroad, this might prevent other potential players with a bigger chance of getting into the franchise teams for SR.

    But with that said, it was just 18 players. and in the bigger scope of things, that's not that many IMO. I would have been worried if it was more like 50. I guess the worrying factor is that the guys who are leaving, are the guys of a high pedigree, but still need to prove their worth at senior level.
     
  6. mdaclarke

    mdaclarke Bench Player

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    Agreed that so long as they still play for the Boks then it is not a problem. It could even be argued that it is a good thing for the Boks (players with experience in the NH)
     
  7. TRF_stormer2010

    TRF_stormer2010 Super Moderator

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    It could probably be argued that if these players make good on their potential and play for the Bokke then SA wins in a way BUT at the same time it is slowly eroding our domestic teams right up to SR level. There is something to be said for our best plying their trade in SR and forging combinations. Our SA SR teams struggle to compete right at the top because our teams don't have that spine of your 24 to 30 year old journeymen (at least not the ones in demand barring on odd exception here and tehre). Its a couple of Bok players, half the time being rested and with their focus elsewhere at times and the up and coming (but then going before they've actually 'arrived' as such). And these teams never get to settle. Fine for our test side maybe but frustrating for a passionate Stormers supporter.
     
  8. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    To a degree yes. But then again, you don't really see many 19-year old's in a SA Super Rugby Team. Most of them play Vodacom Cup/SS Challenge plus the U/19 and U/21 Currie Cup.

    In some way there is perhaps a gap for these players to go abroad and hone their skills while they are between 19-21 and then come back to play SR.
     
  9. mdaclarke

    mdaclarke Bench Player

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  10. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    It was written negatively yes. But they aren't taking everything into perspective when they wrote that article.

    Like we've stated above these boys are lured because of the financial factors, and that they might not have many options at home. So they take these offers abroad. But 20 is not that many, considering that there were over 600 boys at the Craven Week alone this year.

    I can't see all 20 of these guys making the switch over to France or whichever country they are going to, especially after we are World Cup Champions. But they are smart enough to know that this opportunity is better for them and their families than what they might get in SA.
     
  11. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Which English sides are signing SA school kids?
    I can't think of any in the prem - and why would they? Why play a South African academy player who counts towards the cap when you get more funding for playing your own academy players?
     
  12. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Bristol is the only English team that signed a schoolboy. Alexander Groves
     
  13. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Do you know when?
    He's not listed on any of their squads

    Can only presume he's already EQP - makes no sense to sign him otherwise.
     
  14. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    The articles doesn't mention when they were signed, only that they are signed.

    Could be that they only list him when/if he arrives.
     
  15. mdaclarke

    mdaclarke Bench Player

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    If they choose to play for the Boks it may help the Boks. To have players with experience of both NH and SH rugby can only help a team
     
  16. TRF_stormer2010

    TRF_stormer2010 Super Moderator

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    If these players make good on their potential and come back to us good, if they play for other national sides, fine.

    All SA rugby can do is to do what they can to strengthen our domestic sides and get the 'glamor' back, make the youth WANT to play for our provincial teams. More and more I wonder if we shouldn't ditch Super Rugby in favor of a proper Curry Cup tournament.

    The Rand also needs to strengthen but that SARU has absolute zero control over. My hope is that with the success of the Bokke and the amount of non-white stars we have in there that the black market will get in behind SARU more and more. That and we need to get rid of the unions. Streamline and centralize rugby.

    That might be good for NZ and Aus as well. They've been banding about a trans-Tasman comp for aeons. We could always then have the winners play each in one off exhibition matches or set up a Heineken Cup style tournament to supplant Super rugby; less teams, quality vs quality and a knock out setup. Japan have their own domestic league and Argentina could go along with the other countries in the Americas and set up something.
     
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  17. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    I really don't think there is a link between what is going on with the unions, the centralised contracts system we want to implement and these kids going abroad.

    For me these are different issues each with their own group of pro's and con's. They all just fall under the umbrella of SA Rugby.

    These kids and their parents had a plan, and that plan didn't just happen at Craven Week when the scouts were there. No, they had a plan long before that, and my guess is that plan had a few back-up plans as well, such as should the boy not get a call from one of the SR teams to play for their academy or whatever, that the kid should look at options abroad, and maybe they even had discussions with clubs abroad long ago.

    I feel the same way as @TRF_stormer2010 in that if they come back, great! If they don't, so be it.

    We have more than enough depth without these 22 kids. And they still need to prove themselves professionally.

    The thing is, that SARU's plan is to make the depth pool, stronger, and not necessarily bigger. But with that said they are also trying to make a bridge between the professional players and the amateurs, and look at ways to have amateurs become professional while not dropping in quality.

    We shouldn't fault SARU's plan, as they need to make SA Rugby financially stronger than what it is now, in order to make our brand stronger and the players better. And in doing so, limit the amount of professional players which makes the financial burden less on SARU as well as the unions.

    And a lot of that is with the youth squads and academies.
     
  18. mdaclarke

    mdaclarke Bench Player

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    I Love Super Rugby. I would like 2 more South African teams (not Super Rugby ones) join the Pro 14 and give them the ability to qualify for the European Competiitons
     
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  19. TRF_stormer2010

    TRF_stormer2010 Super Moderator

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    That would probably be the Pumas and Griquas but they won't be more competitive than the Cheetahs.

    I for one am totally open to a move of SA teams en masse from SR to Pro14. I am sure that would mean a better deal for us ITO revenue options and the time zones are just better. Hopefully that would in time lead to our being more able to compete salary-wise. On top of that the SA public will get to see some of our stars (and youth..) more albeit playing for overseas clubs. We'd be in a better position to compare 'apples' with 'apples' ITO of overseas based players vs our local ones. I think South Africans on a whole are much more likely to travel to Europe than Aus or NZ.

    I think the old argument of us remaining in SR because of better competition is null and void. I think its fair to say NH teams are on a level at test level and probably ahead in the club/provincial scene at this point in time.

    The question is, how widely spread is your own sentiments? Would more SA teams be welcome? Would we be included in the ECC? How are Euro based clubs and fans experiencing the travel factor WRT the Cheetahs and Kings? I can at least say without reservation that our other teams would be a tad more competitive than the Cheetahs and especially the Kings who are even below some of our other provincial sides that don't even have other comps to play in than Curry Cup.
     
  20. mdaclarke

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    I think it would only be worth it if they can join the ECC.

    If they could join the ECC, there would be an argument to have the Cheetahs and Kings leave Pro 14 and instead have an expanded Currie Cup (10 teams?) (aligned to the European calendar) each time playing each other home and away and the top 6 teams qualifying for the ECC and the next 4 teams qualifying for the Challenge Cup
     
  21. TRF_stormer2010

    TRF_stormer2010 Super Moderator

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    A proper Currie Cup would be amazing. It might just be a tad awkward to have our sides in a tournament that starts with the letter 'E' for Europe. I can just hear the French club owners moan because of having to travel to SA.

    On this note Mehrtens is saying the same thing:
    https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Sup...ins-adamant-drop-sa-from-super-rugby-20191125

    Highlights of his argument being its all about time zones and he sees NZ & Aus venturing into Asia, SA linking up with Dubai... IDK, if Europe would have us I think Strength vs Strength could be amazing. Its just the travel factor.

    Argentina to set up shop with the rest of the Americas.

    Can't say I disagree with him. Only argument other than travel I see against it is traditionally rugby in SA in high summer is murder BUT next year will already see SR start off start of February which is our hottest month so that old argument is moot.

    A crazy thought is for SA businessmen to set up clubs in the Netherlands and be based there like Argentina's Jaguars were based in Stellenbosch in SA a few years before joining SR and playing in our Vodacom Cup. Currently French and English clubs are making "partnerships" with SA sides but to their benefit, effectively making us feeder teams. If our players are playing in Europe in any case I'd rather it be on our terms.
     
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