Springbok issues

[AndrevD]

When Allister got the job, I thought that he wasn't that bad a choice given that SARU would never appoint Mitchell, Jones etc. His record with the Stormers was good, albeit without a trophy. He has been an absolute disaster though. I even want HM back! We were only edged by NZ at last year's World Cup. That match seems like ancient history now!!

1) We need a new coach who is able to choose his own staff. AC must step aside. Ackermann is the obvious choice.

2) I think we should announce that from 2018, only locally based players will be selected.

3) We need meaningful transformation. How about the Department of Sport swap their Mercedes for Hyundai i20s, and use the money to help pay for a full time coach at one former model C in each province. I know you will think that one in each province isn't enough, but we need to start with a small but crucially thorough programme. Having a one day workshop with a load of free rugby balls is not enough. We all know it is about thorough grassroots programmes. How about we start properly at school level in a few schools and also help out programmes like http://connectsportsacademy.co.za/about/

What would your point 4 be? Agree with points 1, 2 & 3?

 

[mdaclarke]

Don't understand South Africa and the IRB

Feel that they have the players but they are played out of position and poorly coached. They need to get rid of AC and Stick or at least get in Jake White and Nick Mallet to support them.

If the players were picked and coached correctly South Africa would be close to or level with the All Blacks and ahead of England.

What is happening is very sad for world rugby and IRB should step in and say enough is enough. Transformation = Discrimination. Discrimination is against the IRB rules.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

White and Mallet will prob never touch SA top job again i mean it has gotten worse behind the scenes from what I gather.

To be honest I wouldn't want to touch SA rugby as a head coach (if I was one), it's not like Eddie Jones and England who gave him everything he needed basically.

Unless something big changes at the top I can't see anything changing.

How can a coach feel secure after its own government has already said it would stop home internationals if quotas weren't meant.

 

[mdaclarke]

What I don't understand is why are the IRB letting one of their biggest assets go to rack and ruin.

Also I don't understand how ruining South African Rugby improves the lot of the average man in Soweto, any more than what Mugabe did to Zimbabwewan cricket improved the lot of the average man in Bulawayo.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What can the IRB do?

Say remove the quotas or they can't play any IRB games?

Isn't that what the SA government has said about rugby anyway, if they fail to meet the targets no internationals?

IRB won't be getting any political back up if it was to try and intervene.

The whole thing is a mess.

 

[TheOvalBall]

What can the IRB do?

Say remove the quotas or they can't play any IRB games?

Isn't that what the SA government has said about rugby anyway, if they fail to meet the targets no internationals?

IRB won't be getting any political back up if it was to try and intervene.

The whole thing is a mess.

The problems the Boks are going through are symptomatic of what the country is going through. The president for example, refuses to quit and he just carries on being a clown.

 

[BakkiesBokke]

"Springbok lock Eben Etzebeth has decided to turn down any offers to play in the Premiership after South Africa's November tour.

The Stormers lock had been linked to Saracens and more recently Bristol for a short stint, but Etzebeth, who suffered a concussion in the Test against England, has now decided to rather use the opportunity to rest.

"I can confirm Eben will not be accepting any offers," his agent Hilton Houghton told Netwerk24.

"He has decided to rather rest and have a good pre-season with the Stormers with an eye on next year's Super Rugby competition.

Reports suggested Etzebeth could have earned as much as £40 000 (R700 000) per game at Bristol."

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/etzebeth-opts-to-rest-after-bok-tour-20161115

This is very interesting. I'm surprised to be honest, but pleased. Missing the conditioning phase of the year would have been a bad idea. If Eben were to suffer a long term injury as a result of over-playing, we would be in even greater trouble.

 

[JohnKA]

The problems the Boks are going through are symptomatic of what the country is going through. The president for example, refuses to quit and he just carries on being a clown.

This is so true !! ... outsiders are now only seeing this because of our rugby but this is all over SA in everything ... jobs .. studies ... government contracts ... you name it and there is "quotas" how will this be fixed ? with a new government ... when will this happen ... lol not while i am still alive ... point of this ... SA Rugby is not in trouble ... the entire bloody SA is in trouble .... i think we will be better off if Trump come and colonize Africa ...

 

[mdaclarke]

What can the IRB do?

Say remove the quotas or they can't play any IRB games?

Isn't that what the SA government has said about rugby anyway, if they fail to meet the targets no internationals?

IRB won't be getting any political back up if it was to try and intervene.

The whole thing is a mess.

Rugby is an olympic sport. The IOC could say to the IRB that unless the stamp down on this then they will drop rugby 7s from the olympics for tolerating racial discrimination. That would get the IRB's attention.
Also as Rugby is an Olympic sport the IOC could ban South Africa from all olympic sports unless it stops discrimination in rugby. No more Caster Semenya in the Olympics. I imagine that would get the ANC's attention.

Surely there is something in the rules about not picking teams on racial grounds. Also didn't the IRB ban South Africa during Apartheid? The basic principle is the same some players are getting picked on the basis of their skin colour. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[JohnKA]

Rugby is an olympic sport. The IOC could say to the IRB that unless the stamp down on this then they will drop rugby 7s from the olympics for tolerating racial discrimination. That would get the IRB's attention.
Also as Rugby is an Olympic sport the IOC could ban South Africa from all olympic sports unless it stops discrimination in rugby. No more Caster Semenya in the Olympics. I imagine that would get the ANC's attention.

Surely there is something in the rules about not picking teams on racial grounds. Also didn't the IRB ban South Africa during Apartheid? The basic principle is the same some players are getting picked on the basis of their skin colour. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Wonder why non of those bodies are doing a thing about this .....

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

They'd need to bring it up with the Maori All Blacks. They have a true quota of 100% of team must have some Maori descent and it clearly offers a player increased development opportunity to make the full squad by granting fixtures against international teams. They make the apparently non-binding targets at different levels of rugby look tame in comparison and don't even have the "social inclusion" argument to fall back on. The Maori side has been on the go since 1888 with no obvious protests from any governing body, so I wouldn't hold out much hope for any change being dictated to the SA government.

 

[mdaclarke]

The Maori's are not the national team. I consider the Maori's an ideal template for South African transformation team. Would give opportunity for non-white players without damaging test rugby.

 

[jomjom]

The Maori's are not the national team. I consider the Maori's an ideal template for South African transformation team. Would give opportunity for non-white players without damaging test rugby.

lol, "the South African Blacks"?

 

[AndrevD]

I think most South Africans would like there to be fair transformation (involving increasing the pool of children playing rugby at school etc so that it feeds through), but most people don't think quotas are the way to go about transformation (a top down approach will never work).

Unfortunately, I cannot see this changing in the near future, even though Fikile Mbalula is unlikely to Sports Minister when the next president is announced after next year's elective conference (sadly JZ isn't going anywhere till then, although this is perhaps a topic for the political thread).

With this unfortunate status quo in mind, I have a couple of points:

The Proteas have got a much better deal than the Springboks. They need to meet their transformation targets over the course of an entire season, across the three formats. There were 9 non-white players selected in a One Day International victory recently (out of 11 obviously), whilst the current Test team that beat Australia yesterday had 6 non-white players. This means that the Proteas are ahead of their requirements, so they won't be sanctioned if they field fewer non-white players later in the season, as the season as a whole is what is looked at. The Proteas are also very fortunate that they have unleashed a bowler who may well go down in history as a legend a decade from now (Rabada), Philander has found his form again after an injury, Bavuma is looking increasingly like a class act etc (again this is perhaps for another thread in the off-topic subforum).

Anyway, my point is that SARU needs to try and get a similar deal that covers a season-wide assessment, that most importantly covers both formats of the game; the 7 and the 15 a side team. If one includes the 7s, then there is more room to manoeuvre. In addition, perhaps the Boks should play a match each year against a much lower ranked side, between the end of the Currie Cup and the 1st NH Autumn international? The match could be used to blood in new players and also as an opportunity to boost non-white numbers, so that there is greater selection freedom against tougher opposition later in the season?

I like the idea of something along the Maori XV idea. The easiest way to do this is to have more SA A matches and select a majority non-white team for that.

I hope my points make sense. I make them in light of the current situation as things stand, in terms of making the best of the situation as it is. I would of course like said situation to change and for all the efforts to go into boosting rugby in schools that don't currently provide it.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

lol, "the South African Blacks"?

It's a shame "the All Blacks" is taken already.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Wonder why non of those bodies are doing a thing about this .....

The question is, what can they do?

About a month ago, the ICC (International Cricket Council) distanced itself from SA selection policies, and said that they will not get involved in the transformation process. The GM of strategic resources, Claire Furlong made this comment:

"Our policy is very much that selection issues are a matter for Member boards so not something we will talk further about."

http://newsdog.today/a/article/57a06faf76f3df0b35289e6d/ http://www.sport24.co.za/Cricket/cricket-quotas-icc-unlikely-to-step-in-20160912

Now, the possibility is that the IRB and even the IOC might do the same.

But as has been discussed in other threads regarding the Quota topic. The matter has been taken to the UN by Afriforum. And they have asked our country's member to give them answers at their next meeting.

At the moment, I think that we are going to be stuck with this problem, especially while our president and his lackeys like our Sports Minister are still in power.

 

[TheOvalBall]

I think most South Africans would like there to be fair transformation (involving increasing the pool of children playing rugby at school etc so that it feeds through), but most people don't think quotas are the way to go about transformation (a top down approach will never work).

Unfortunately, I cannot see this changing in the near future, even though Fikile Mbalula is unlikely to Sports Minister when the next president is announced after next year's elective conference (sadly JZ isn't going anywhere till then, although this is perhaps a topic for the political thread).

With this unfortunate status quo in mind, I have a couple of points:

The Proteas have got a much better deal than the Springboks. They need to meet their transformation targets over the course of an entire season, across the three formats. There were 9 non-white players selected in a One Day International victory recently (out of 11 obviously), whilst the current Test team that beat Australia yesterday had 6 non-white players. This means that the Proteas are ahead of their requirements, so they won't be sanctioned if they field fewer non-white players later in the season, as the season as a whole is what is looked at. The Proteas are also very fortunate that they have unleashed a bowler who may well go down in history as a legend a decade from now (Rabada), Philander has found his form again after an injury, Bavuma is looking increasingly like a class act etc (again this is perhaps for another thread in the off-topic subforum).

Anyway, my point is that SARU needs to try and get a similar deal that covers a season-wide assessment, that most importantly covers both formats of the game; the 7 and the 15 a side team. If one includes the 7s, then there is more room to manoeuvre. In addition, perhaps the Boks should play a match each year against a much lower ranked side, between the end of the Currie Cup and the 1st NH Autumn international? The match could be used to blood in new players and also as an opportunity to boost non-white numbers, so that there is greater selection freedom against tougher opposition later in the season?

I like the idea of something along the Maori XV idea. The easiest way to do this is to have more SA A matches and select a majority non-white team for that.

I hope my points make sense. I make them in light of the current situation as things stand, in terms of making the best of the situation as it is. I would of course like said situation to change and for all the efforts to go into boosting rugby in schools that don't currently provide it.

I think everyone is fed up with transformation. The government broke a working system. Everything should be on merit. Development should start at school level. Instead of developing players of all races and ages, they just went nuts with this AA policy.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think everyone is fed up with transformation. The government broke a working system. Everything should be on merit. Development should start at school level. Instead of developing players of all races and ages, they just went nuts with this AA policy.

They went to the extreme with everything, not just transformation.

But I see light at the end of the tunnel. During the last sitting of the Transformation in Sports Committee meeting. There were a lot more people speaking in how broken the current system is, and how it's damaging our sports teams. Some political parties who never joined the debate on this matter also got involved, and some even launched scathing attacks on their ANC counterparts.

But what was interesting was that an ANC member stood up and said that the top-heavy approach should be abandoned completely. And that raised a lot of eyebrows.

Now, I don't know when will there be another sitting, or when decisions will be taken. But I sense a shift coming from inside the structures. SARU has defied Mbalula's order of campaigning to host major sporting events, which makes me feel that some sort of resistance is coming, and that they will not bow down to every whim of our Sports Minister. Maybe it has something to do with Hoskins leaving, or maybe that SARU is feeling the pressure on all fronts, but nonetheless, there are changes happening.

At the moment it is very minute, yes, but at least there is something happening.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I think most South Africans would like there to be fair transformation (involving increasing the pool of children playing rugby at school etc so that it feeds through), but most people don't think quotas are the way to go about transformation (a top down approach will never work).

Unfortunately, I cannot see this changing in the near future, even though Fikile Mbalula is unlikely to Sports Minister when the next president is announced after next year's elective conference (sadly JZ isn't going anywhere till then, although this is perhaps a topic for the political thread).

With this unfortunate status quo in mind, I have a couple of points:

The Proteas have got a much better deal than the Springboks. They need to meet their transformation targets over the course of an entire season, across the three formats. There were 9 non-white players selected in a One Day International victory recently (out of 11 obviously), whilst the current Test team that beat Australia yesterday had 6 non-white players. This means that the Proteas are ahead of their requirements, so they won't be sanctioned if they field fewer non-white players later in the season, as the season as a whole is what is looked at. The Proteas are also very fortunate that they have unleashed a bowler who may well go down in history as a legend a decade from now (Rabada), Philander has found his form again after an injury, Bavuma is looking increasingly like a class act etc (again this is perhaps for another thread in the off-topic subforum).

Anyway, my point is that SARU needs to try and get a similar deal that covers a season-wide assessment, that most importantly covers both formats of the game; the 7 and the 15 a side team. If one includes the 7s, then there is more room to manoeuvre. In addition, perhaps the Boks should play a match each year against a much lower ranked side, between the end of the Currie Cup and the 1st NH Autumn international? The match could be used to blood in new players and also as an opportunity to boost non-white numbers, so that there is greater selection freedom against tougher opposition later in the season?

I like the idea of something along the Maori XV idea. The easiest way to do this is to have more SA A matches and select a majority non-white team for that.

I hope my points make sense. I make them in light of the current situation as things stand, in terms of making the best of the situation as it is. I would of course like said situation to change and for all the efforts to go into boosting rugby in schools that don't currently provide it.

As an outsider I'd pretty much agree with all the above as viable options (although as seen elsewhere I'm in favour of considering the use of both quotas and targets in sport and wider society). I'm sure there is a long way to go for the test cricket side to reclaim its former glory of the early Graeme Smith years, but its fun to hear how they laid the hurt down on the Aussies in their own back yard. They have not reacted well!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-37995630

We'll see in time if this is evidence that targets / quotas can go hand in hand with long term success, or whether this was just a flash in the pan against a declining Aussie side.

An established, regular second XV for SA would arguably help younger players (of any ethnicity) transition into test rugby (apologies if they already have one and I've overlooked it). Even taking race out of the equation it is probably a good idea for a country at a time of massive transition when most of your experienced players have retired.

It'd also be very helpful for the development of African rugby. Argentina use a second XV to play teams in the Americas and everyone benefits from those matches, although admittedly by having only one professional club, the need for Argentina to have a second XV is stronger. But its not like Argentina and its union are richer than SA. Teams like Namibia (qualified for the last RWC), Zimbabwe (just ran Russia close 19-15 in Hong Kong) and Kenya (decent at 7s, so have potential) would massively benefit from the opportunity to regularly play a SA second XV and it would have the makings of a decent tournament in time. All completely hypothetical of course.

 

[RuggerNut]

The paradox here is that the Maori All Blacks are not permitted to play in South Africa as they are a team selected based on race - persona non grata.