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Springbok Watch - [2016 Super Rugby Season]

TRF_heineken

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Let me follow in @TRF Mr Fish 's footsteps and do the same for the Springboks.

2016 is a new era for South African Rugby. We are all aware of the negativity surrounding SARU, Jurie Roux, Oregon Hoskins and the problems they are facing. Then there is the whole debacle of the Quota system and the implementation thereof. And lastly, no Springbok coach (yet). This last point brings up a lot of questions and very few answers...

But enough of the negativity, let's look at the candidates for Springbok this year. Firstly, I'll put up the players that are currently in the Springbok mix.

Loosehead Prop
Trevor Nyakane, Beast Mtawarira, Coenie Oosthuizen, Julian Redelinghuys

Hooker
Adriaan Strauss, Scarra Ntubeni

Tighthead Prop
Marcel van der Merwe, Frans Malherbe, Vincent Koch.

Lock
Eben Etzebeth, Pieter-Steph Du Toit, Lood De Jager

Flanker
Schalk Burger, Marcel Coetzee

No. 8
Warren Whiteley, Arno Botha

Scrumhalf
Rudy Paige, Cobus Reinach

Flyhalf
Handre Pollard and Pat Lambie will miss the entire Super Rugby Tournament, so this position is most likely going to have a new face for the Bokke.

Winger
Bryan Habana, JP Pietersen and Cornal Hendricks won't be playing Super Rugby, and Francois Hougaard is with the 7's and then joining Worcester later. Also new faces to show here.

Centres
Jan Serfontein, Jesse Kriel, Lionel Mapoe

Fullback
Willie Le Roux

Now the new faces/candidates who could/might feature. And here I'm not going to take the quota system into consideration, I'm just going to state who I think has a good shot at becoming a springbok.

Props
This is the position I'm most looking forward to seeing how the youngster go about their business. there's about 2 - 3 props in each of the SA teams that will make their debuts. I think a strong contender will be Ox from the Bulls (no pun intended) and the Lions props.

Hooker
This is probably the position where we need to strengthen our ranks, I hope Malcolm Marx shows us what he really can do after so much hype from his fellow players and coach. But his strongest competitor is Robbie Coetzee who will battle it out for the Lions (and most probably the Springboks) jersey.

Locks
The dawn of a new era. I think Marvin Orie, Jean Kleyn and Franco Mostert are going to show us that they are all springbok material to join the big 3.

Flanker
Jaco Kriel. Why he isn't a bok yet is beyond my comprehension, but I hope he makes it this year. Nizam Carr, the Du Preez brothers and Notshe have all shown us what they can do during the Currie Cup, I just wonder how the younger guys will go about in Super Rugby. Then a forgotten member returns in the shape of Keegan Daniel(s). I hope he's heavier...

No. 8
No more Pierre Spies. Most of the flankers I mentioned can/has played at no 8 too.

Scrumhalf
Faf de Klerk & Guy Cronje. Maybe Nic Groom/Jano Vermaak?

Fly half
Elton Jantjies seems to be the favourite to fill the gap the 2 injured FH's have left. But there will be some competition from Sias Ebersohn (back from the Force, now with the Cheetahs), Marnitz Boshoff (who can also play fullback), Tiaan Schoeman (Showed in the Currie Cup he's not just a kicking fly half), Robert Du Preez (Had a couple of good and bad moments during the CC). And then Peter Grant (he's playing for the Force, but is nonetheless still a contender for this spot).

Centre
Burger Odendaal, Paul Jordaan, Stefan Watermeyer, Stokkies Hanekom, JP Du Plessis & Howard Mnisi. These guys are the ones I'm keeping an eye out for making Springbok in probably the toughest position to get a spot in the Springbok team.

Winger
Jamba Ulengo, Malcolm Jaer, Raymond Rhule, Sbura Sithole, Sergeal Petersen, Seabelo Senatla. Let's see which flyer shows us the most!

Fullback
Cheslin Kolbe, Warwick Gelant, Andries Coetzee and Marnitz Boshoff could be Le Roux's understudy. All of them are pretty well rounded, it's just that their defence is at times a bit shaky.

I know my fellow Saffas will throw in a few other names, and please don't hesitate to do so. It's always fun to see which players impresses certain posters. We need something to keep us motivated, as everything else in our country is going down the crapper!
 
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If Flouw played for us while at bath then surely Vermeulen and JPP will still be in contention.
 
If Flouw played for us while at bath then surely Vermeulen and JPP will still be in contention.

I only mentioned guys that are participating in this year's Super Rugby tournament. We don't know yet what will be the new selection policy when the new coach is eventually appointed and if players in the NH will be eligible to be picked.
 
There is also this guy called Damian De Allende that you may want to include in that post. ;)
 
There is also this guy called Damian De Allende that you may want to include in that post. ;)

I didn't because he's out injured. I'll update that OP when he's back. I just saw that Arno Botha is fit and starting this Saturday, so I'm already editing the OP to include him.
 
Surely if not ahead of the rest than he should be ahead of Sbura Sithole atleast. Lwazi Mvovo will be first choice next to JPP. The coaches will probably use Sithole as a utility back.
 
We don't know who the new coach will be or what his/SARU's policy will be regarding overseas-based players. We also don't know how much of a factor racial quotas will be as well. So its pointless trying to adapt one's thoughts to accommodate those issues at this stage. On that basis the way I see pre-season;

LH PROP:

The likelies
Mtawarira
- Is likely to remain if only because he is an experienced player still based in SA.
Nyakane - In my view has done enough to keep his place.
Kitshoff - Might be a big loss. He hasn't had many chances due to injury but is IMO our actual best LH. The question is, as per my opening paragraph, will he get any more chances being abroad and white in a position where we have talented black players who already have more caps? His possible exclusion due to being based abroad might open the door for others though.

The possibles
Coenie Oosthuizen
- It remains to be seen where he plays for the Sharks though. I still maintain he is poorer at TH than LH. Also, it seems as if in recent years he has lost something of what made him an attractive option in the first place and is a penalty machine. But lets see how his season goes. We know he is on the Bok radar (otherwise I might not have included him myself).
Thomas du Toit - He is another LH who is playing TH at the Sharks and competing with Oosthuizen and Mtawarira for game time. One of our better prospects IMO.
Lizo Gqoboka - Wasted at the Kings it might do his chances well having joined the Bulls despite probably playing back-up to Nayakane. First up though will probably be his biggest task at scrum time before the Jaguars in facing Bok duo Koch and Malherbe. Talk about being thrown in at the deep end. He'll be hoping Nyakane and co have set a platform before he comes on.
Olly Kebble - A big lad and he has the benefit of setting up combinations at SR level with Bok tight fives in Etzebeth, Malherbe, PS du Toit and (assuming they get fringe roleswith the national team) Koch and Ntubeni. He is my pick for bolter.
 
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HOOKER:

The likelies
Bismarck du Plesis
- A star at test level with some miles in the tank still. I epexct he'll remain in the selection frame until we have someone step up (hopefully sooner rather than later).
Adriaan Strauss - Is still in SA and has the experience and is in a leadership role. You don't through that away if there isn't any obvious replacements.

The possiblies
Scarra Ntubeni
- He has been touring along with the Bokke but I hope he either sorts his line-out throwing out or gets throw out. I am nervous about that for the Stormers as well. His general play is decent but I can't see him make the same impact at test level like what Bismarck can. Scarra does have the benefit of being involved at SR level with Etzebeth, PS du Toit, Malherbe and Kochand settled combinations and a black player in the forwards might look attractive to a new coach.
The Lions trio of Robbie Coetzee, Armand van der Merwe and Malcolm Marx - I rate all three quite highly. The issue is Lions players seem to be at a disadvantage looking at the national setup since they don't play "Bok" rugby. Depending on the new coach and what his aspirations might be this might actually play in Lions players' advantage. The other issue these players face is getting regular game time and setting themselves apart from each other.
Chiliboy Ralepele - He is back in the country. Might he have sensed an opportunity to get back his role as Bok deputy or even a starting berth. I didn't follow his career overseas so I wouldn't know how likely that might be.
 
Early days, but am very worried about our prospects at 10. Elton didn't do anything to show he's the next incumbent. What do boys?
 
My current Bok wishlist;

1 Kitshoff
Nyakane has done wel enough. I also like the look of Marais at the Cheetahs.
2 Du Plessis
3 Malherbe
4 Etzebeth
5 Du Toit
6 Coetzee
7 ? we can't really make a mistake though; Louw, Alberts and Burger the encumbants but I'd put a waiger on Whiteley, Kriel and any one of the Du Preez bro's, probably Jean-Luc a fraction ahead of Daniel.
8 Vermeulen

9 Reinach
10 Pollard

11 Senatla
12 De Allende
13 Venter
14 Combrinck
15 Le Roux

16 Strauss
17 Nyakane
18 Van Dyk
19 De Jager
20 ?
21 De Klerk / Hougaard
22 Lambie
23 Kriel
 
Anyone we didn't know about who is on the radar?

Beast looks well enough and so too Nyakane. I havn't kept track of Kitshoff but it looks like there will probably not be any new faces in green here? Of those with an outside chance I've liked Kebble most but its too early for him yet IMO.

I'd add Edgar Marutlule as a "possible" at hooker if he keeps going well in a struggling team. Bismarck and Strauss will probably still keep down the jerseys for another year or two.

Malherbe seems to be doing enough to warrant his being Bok encumbat at tight head prop. Koch looks to be less intimidating than last year. Coenie Oosthuizen doesn't add enough in the loose to make up for his lack of dominance at scrum time IMO. Max van Dyk from the Cheetahs as a possible bolter?

Etzebeth is in fine form and between De Jager and Du Toit we are sorted and beyond them there is a host of quality options based abroad (and which our local teams should have had use of but the weak Rand...) if we have to look past them due to injury. No issues here.

Coetzee, Kriel, Whiteley and Vermeulen are my picks for the loosies. Burger I have behind all of Carr, Kolisi and Notshe for the Stormers so I woud feel downtrodden if he got a look in for the Bokke. His been great for the Bokke over the years but its time to move on past him and Alberts IMO. I'd even bring in Kriel ahead of Louw at this stage. Botha, Carr, Kolisi, the Du Preez bro's.. who else might make up the numbers?

I feel De Klerk is continuing where he left off and it should be between him and Reinach for the no.9 jersey. I'd probably have had Hougaard in the mix but I think these two should do fiine if we don't force them into a mold.

10... well, we know who our option are but we don't know what the injuries will mean. Jantjies looks set to be ready for Ireland at least. Lambie supposedly is a long shot while Pollard is ruled out. I wouldn't mind Steyn keeping Pollard/Lambie's seat warm but I want him on the bench if needed. Its between Pollard, Lambie and Jantjies IMO.

De Allende is back training. I hope he keeps fit and isn't rushed back even though the Stormers can do with some penetration in the back! Kriel should be kept on IMO. Beyond those two Serfontein, Venter, Mapoe and though he is in France, Ebersohn are my picks as back-ups though Serfontein probably has the inside track even if he is somewhat off form.

At fullback Le Roux had a quiet game against the Crusaders but he is still our best option probably? Gelant and Kolbe the fullbacks at the other 'big' franchizes are players in a similar vain almost forcing the issue. I hope the selectors don't rule out either of Coetzee and Combrinck at the Lions though!! Kriel is going to be playing at 15 again with Gelant out for a spell. Will be interesting to see how he goes but he looked dangerous at 13 outside Pollard and De Allende. I'd hate it if we'd have to throw that away.

On the wings there isn't much to say IMO. We have many 'okay' options. That's about the long and short of it. No newcomers so far putting their hands up. Mvovo should make it IMO. Beyond him possibly bring in someone out of position in one of our fullbacks or centers. Could we see Combrinck or Hougaard?
 
Well here's my 2 cents after 5 rounds of Super Rugby.

Props:
Maks van Dyk and Marcel van der Merwe are getting better and better as the season moves on. Along with the names you mentioned @TRF_stormer2010.

Hooker: Edgar Marutlule and Malcolm Marx are the 2 standouts so far for me. Strauss isn't up to standard as of yet.

Locks: PSDT, Etzebeth and De Jager are definitely the front runners. Reynecke (Sharks), Sykes (Kings) and Snyman (Bulls) along with Mostert (Lions) are all doing a great job.

Loose Trio: Pretty much the same for me, and the Du Preez brothers as well as Kirsten (Bulls) are defending like possessed men.

Scrumhalf: Faf De Klerk, Jano Vermaak and Reinach are my picks so far.

Fly Half: Elton seems okay to play this weekend, so he's still the front-runner, with Lambie as the back-up, I'd also add Joe Pietersen to the mix, but not for goal kicking...

Centres: Burger Odendaal and Francois Venter as well as Mnisi are playing great, they are great prospects for the number 12 jersey.

Wings: Ruan Combrink and Mvovo...

Fullback: Willie Le Roux, Gelant and Kolbe

As for the NH guys...

It seems like a lot of SA players are moving to other Clubs.

I also saw a video of Pierre Spies running amok for Montpellier. I don't get to see much of them playing so I have to go on the reports and posts I get to see.
 
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So with Toetie touted as being all but appointed already will we see a Stormers bias? Will we be playing Coetzee's version of 'Stormers rugby'?

TBH the only guys I see as getting a look in where he might not have is in Vincent Koch, Kolisi and possibly Carr. The Stormers are very much a team of obvious test players mixed with journeymen. We don't have a lot of those 'maybe' players ITO international rugby. Kolbe maybe as well? No, I think Coetzee's comments regarding size will come into play here. He never had the option at the Stormers but he has more powerful blokes to choose from if he has all SA players to choose from.

On the flip side this could be bad news for Lions players. There is something of a shared perception in the Cape that interior players look good playing for interior teams and turn too poo when playing in our side and that the interior teams and coastal teams play totally different brands of rugby, the Lions and Lions players in particular (Jantjies' stint in the Cape and Taute being cases in point).
 
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So with Toetie touted as being all but appointed already will we see a Stormers bias? Will we be playing Coetzee's version of 'Stormers rugby'?

TBH the only guys I see as getting a look in where he might not have is in Vincent Koch, Kolisi and possibly Carr. The Stormers are very much a team of obvious test players mixed with journeymen. We don't have a lot of those 'maybe' players ITO international rugby. Kolbe maybe as well? No, I think Coetzee's comments regarding size will come into play here. He never had the option at the Stormers but he has more powerful blokes to choose from if he has all SA players to choose from.

On the flip side this could be bad news for Lions players. There is something of a shared perception in the Cape that interior players look good playing for interior teams and turn too poo when playing in our side and that the interior teams and coastal teams play totally different brands of rugby, the Lions and Lions players in particular (Jantjies' stint in the Cape and Taute being cases in point).

I don't know what to say about Toetie... Maybe it's my favouritism for HM that is maybe clouding my judgement, but I am very pessimistic about Toetie coaching the Bokke. As a head coach he's been rather unsuccessful in my view, yet as an assistant coach he's been doing well. I still don't see him as quality coach at international level. He has to prove to me that he can do the job.

What I do like however, is the articles floating around about the Super Rugby Coaches being the selectors of the Bok teams. They are the ones analysing every player and knows their strengths and weaknesses. It's a good way to pick the best team for the Springboks and understand what his franchise coach sees in him, but also what the opposition saw and where he might be vulnerable.
 
How i see it is that on the one hand they fired/ parted Heyneke meyer because he was 1. too conservative ( not playing an expansive game) 2. He was not willing to develop players needed for transformation on a national stage. His argument was that players of colour should be developed at grasroots. and club rugby level not at national level. So when he could not agree to their plans of forcing black players to play in the Springboks then they decided he had to go.

My problem with Coetzee is he created a team that is the definition of conservative. That stormers teams he had never got bonus points but they were probably the best defensive side around. So how is he a step up from HM ?

I honestly believe that our best option for the Springbok coach is Rassie Erasmus
 
I for one though not thrilled with the appointment am willing to give Toetie the benefit of the doubt until we see how what he does translates at test level.

TBH the only appointments I would be thrilled with are foreigners or committed to the Lions.

The main reason I am willing to wait to see what we have in Coetzee is the fact that we lacked world class players in absolutely key positions at the Stormers during his tenure. Hooker, 9, 10 and 15. Pretty key positions. Even without the best we have in those positions the Stormers had been the most successful SA side during the time he had charge.
 
How i see it is that on the one hand they fired/ parted Heyneke meyer because he was 1. too conservative ( not playing an expansive game) 2. He was not willing to develop players needed for transformation on a national stage. His argument was that players of colour should be developed at grasroots. and club rugby level not at national level. So when he could not agree to their plans of forcing black players to play in the Springboks then they decided he had to go.

My problem with Coetzee is he created a team that is the definition of conservative. That stormers teams he had never got bonus points but they were probably the best defensive side around. So how is he a step up from HM ?

I honestly believe that our best option for the Springbok coach is Rassie Erasmus

There's a lot more to the HM departure than we know. And his radio silence since then, is evident of that. Perhaps they asked him to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

But I can't agree on that he was too conservative. Especially with regard to our gameplay. We were one of the teams that scored the most tries of all the international teams under his tenure. He was perhaps a bit conservative with the players he picked and rather going for the old than the young. But didn't that work in our favour against Wales in the QF??

I for one though not thrilled with the appointment am willing to give Toetie the benefit of the doubt until we see how what he does translates at test level.

TBH the only appointments I would be thrilled with are foreigners or committed to the Lions.

The main reason I am willing to wait to see what we have in Coetzee is the fact that we lacked world class players in absolutely key positions at the Stormers during his tenure. Hooker, 9, 10 and 15. Pretty key positions. Even without the best we have in those positions the Stormers had been the most successful SA side during the time he had charge.

I don't know Stormer, I think that is part and parcel one of the things that bugs me of AC. He overlooks talent and sticks to certain players above better other players. Hooker for instance, Scarra Ntubeni is for me not up to standard to be a Springbok, one of the key things a hooker must do is the throw-in at the lineout, and he is consistently pinged for not throwing in straight. That is also evident in that Mbonambi mostly starts this season.

The Stormers' problem at key positions shouldn't have been a problem, most of the top Fly Halves and Scrum Halves come from the cape. Pollard and Hougaard are examples of that. Maybe it was the scouts, or maybe it was Toetie and his team, but either way, there usually was a problem in recruitment, and then the Stormers goes out and buys players from other franchises who already made a name for themselves, like Bryan Habana, Elton Jantjies, Duane Vermeulen, Jaco Taute, PSDT, and Jano Vermaak.

Perhaps that will change, and like I said, Toetie will have to prove his worth...

I just don't want the Springboks to become like a Barclays Premier League where coaches are hired and fired left right and centre.
 
I doubt Toetie had much say in recruitment though. His parting words are indicative of him being restrained or uninvolved in terms of the recruitment of players at the Stormers.
 
What are your Bok teams to face ireland looking like?

Mine:

1 Steven Kitshoff
2 Bismarck du Plessis
3 Frans Malherbe (vc)
4 Eben Etzebeth
5 Lood de Jager
6 Marcel Coetzee (assuming he might be ready in time?)
7 Warren Whiteley
8 Duane Vermeulen (c)
9 Faf de Klerk
10 Elton Jantjies
11 Lwazi Mvovo / Sergeal Petersen
12 Damian de Allende
13 Lionel Mapoe
14 Ruan Combrinck
15 Jesse Kriel

16 Armand van der Merwe
17 Trevor Nyakane
18 Vincent Koch
19 Pieter-Steph du Toit
20 Siya Kolisi
21 Cobus Reinach
22 Pat Lambie
23 Wille le Roux
 
I'm going to make 2 teams. one out of just Super Rugby players (for the sake of the thread) and one of NH players added.

Super Rugby Bok Team:

1. Beast Mtawarira
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Frans Malherbe
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. PS Du Toit
6. Jaco Kriel
7. Siya Kolisi
8. Warren Whiteley

9. Faf de Klerk
10. Elton Jantjies
11. Ruan Combrink
12. Damian De Allende
13. Jesse Kriel
14. Sergeal Pietersen
15. Willie Le Roux

16. Malcolm Marx
17. Trevor Nyakane
18. Julian Redelinghuys
19. Lood De Jager
20. Jean-luc Du Preez
21. Cobus Reinach
22. Niel Marais
23. Lionel Mapoe

NH and SR combined:

1. Steven Kitshoff
2. Bismarck Du Plessis
3. Frans Malherbe
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. PS du Toit
6. Jaco Kriel
7. Francois Louw
8. Duane Vermeulen

9. Faf De Klerk
10. Elton Jantjies
11. Bryan Habana
12. Damian De Allende
13. Jesse Kriel
14. Ruan Combrink
15. Willie Le Roux

16. Adriaan Strauss
17. Trevor Nyakane
18. Julian Redelinghuys
19. Lood De Jager
20. Siya Kolisi
21. Cobus Reinach
22. Johan Goosen
23. Lionel Mapoe
 

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