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SR power rankings

Sorry a bit harsh, I agree.

But really, looking at the performances you don't have to be a genius to come to this conclusion. The Crusaders have scored 22 tries, the Stormers haven't even scored half as many, on 10, the 3rd lowest in the competition. Granted they have decent defense, but you can't claim to be the 3rd best team in the competition with a stat like that.

Thanks.

That is true, they haven't scored many tries. But despite that they have still won 4 of their five games. It is fair to say the Stormers are fairly screwed if a team gets two or three quick tries against us. But because of our defense it doesn't happen very often. If we look at the defense stat for the season, the Stormers has let in only 5 tries, and in particular prevented the Brumbies from scoring any even though they have scored 21 tries in other matches this season. In contrast the Crusaders have let in 14 tries which is almost three times the amount of the Stormers. If we are looking at for against, the Stormers score double the number of tries on average than the opponents they are playing (statistics are skewy things, but still ;) ). Crusaders have a positive rate but not as positive of the Stormers rate.
 
Thanks.

That is true, they haven't scored many tries. But despite that they have still won 4 of their five games. It is fair to say the Stormers are fairly screwed if a team gets two or three quick tries against us. But because of our defense it doesn't happen very often. If we look at the defense stat for the season, the Stormers has let in only 5 tries, and in particular prevented the Brumbies from scoring any even though they have scored 21 tries in other matches this season. In contrast the Crusaders have let in 14 tries which is almost three times the amount of the Stormers. If we are looking at for against, the Stormers score double the number of tries on average than the opponents they are playing (statistics are skewy things, but still ;) ). Crusaders have a positive rate but not as positive of the Stormers rate.

Yes and that defensive record is why I have the Stormers firmly in 4th, but scoring tries is far more important than not, even with a fantastic defensive record. Maybe with De Allende back in the mix more tries might come about for the Stormers, I expect the Stormers to finish the competition with by far the best defensive record, but that is largely due to the draw to, which is another reason why the Crusaders get the 3rd spot currently. I'm desperately disappointed to not see the Stormers play the Chiefs, Highlanders, Hurricanes and Crusaders backlines, they would be great games.
 
This was intended as a friendly zero-consequence discussion to while away these early week days, gents. I am glad to see you've pulled it back to such! We all have our own yardsticks; if we didn't there'd be little point in a lot of undertakings. I think we ca all at least agree that our collective efforts and considerations seem a little closer to what one could call 'accurate' and I use the term very loosely since this is of course an absolutely subjective excersize nd we each attach differing values to different considerations.

If I use the 4 rankings we've put down ths far and average it out;

(-) implies a considerate gap while (/) implies we've gotten them on a level between the 4 of us who have contributed so far.

1 Chiefs
-
2 Crusaders / Highlnders
4 Stormers
-
5 Lions
6 Hurricanes / Brumbies
-
8 Sharks
-
9 Bulls / Blues
11 Rebels
-
12 Jaguars
13 Waratahs
-
14 Force
15 Cheetahs
16 Reds
-
17 Sunwolves
18 Kings
 
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Yes and that defensive record is why I have the Stormers firmly in 4th, but scoring tries is far more important than not, even with a fantastic defensive record. Maybe with De Allende back in the mix more tries might come about for the Stormers, I expect the Stormers to finish the competition with by far the best defensive record, but that is largely due to the draw to, which is another reason why the Crusaders get the 3rd spot currently. I'm desperately disappointed to not see the Stormers play the Chiefs, Highlanders, Hurricanes and Crusaders backlines, they would be great games.

I think it's relative. You need to score a lot more tries if you allow a lot more tries in against you. Once again if we have a period of lapsed judgement in defense for more than 10 minutes and we let in two or three tries I think we are done, which is a huge weakness to have. I am sure we will lose a match to that at some point, but I don't see it happening very often. With the new bonus point system as well, I also think it is less important nowadays to get as many tries as possible. It is a lot more balanced in that regard which I think is better for our national teams, because it instills the importance of good defense into our players. But it also currently means less teams are getting bonus points.

Stormers supporters are also disappointed that we don't get to play the New Zealand teams in the pool stages. They are always entertaining tense encounters which truly test both teams. It is a shame we have to wait another year (or potentially longer if we get put in the Australian playing pool again next year) for all those clashes to happen.
 
Looking at these rankings I wish we had more Aussie pundits. Though I think to some degree this is a valid extrapulation can one say that the NZ teams have been absolutely dominant while the Aus teams have been poor? Is our bias showing and we are downplaying Aussie sides? The SA sides I feel are going rather as predicted/expected; very little between the top 4 though all of them are showing the weak spots we knew were there and then 2 easy-beats, one trying to rebuild this year after lengthy poor management (or is it just the money?- lack thereof) and the other which shouldn't but for political interference even be in the tournament, not even being the 6th (or 7th, or maybe even 8th?) best team in SA.
 
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Sorry a bit harsh, I agree.

But really, looking at the performances you don't have to be a genius to come to this conclusion. The Crusaders have scored 22 tries, the Stormers haven't even scored half as many, on 10, the 3rd lowest in the competition. Granted they have decent defense, but you can't claim to be the 3rd best team in the competition with a stat like that.

I think if you look at last few years' stats, The Crusaders always scored more tries than the Stormers:

2015:
Crusaders - 56 Tries
Stormers - 33 Tries

2014:
Crusaders - 48 Tries
Stormers - 30 Tries

2013:
Crusaders - 49 Tries
Stormers - 30 Tries

The Stormers has a reputation of not getting the 4 try bonus point in the past.

I think they were tired vs an inform Chiefs, the Brumbies had just come back from a tough SA tour. Granted the Stormers played smart vs them in Cape Town, ultimately Peyper and the TMO killed that game off. They will regain some form, but they have a few tough fixtures to front up for, and I think teams have figured them out, they have some glaring weaknesses, one of them is Jesse Mogg leaving.

Oh and David Pocock is banned for 3 weeks, making things even tougher.

So, it's Peyper's fault that the Brumbies were ill disciplined and got a Man-Red Carded (Mann-Rea). The Stormers managed to take advantage of this and put them to the sword. Yes, the TMO didn't make the end an enjoyable experience, but the Stormers won nonetheless. If this Power Ranking was done prior to the Stormers match, the Brumbies would have been on top of the list, and I think the majority would have reached the same consensus that they should be there...



Yes and that defensive record is why I have the Stormers firmly in 4th, but scoring tries is far more important than not, even with a fantastic defensive record. Maybe with De Allende back in the mix more tries might come about for the Stormers, I expect the Stormers to finish the competition with by far the best defensive record, but that is largely due to the draw to, which is another reason why the Crusaders get the 3rd spot currently. I'm desperately disappointed to not see the Stormers play the Chiefs, Highlanders, Hurricanes and Crusaders backlines, they would be great games.

Scoring tries is important yes, but with this new bonus point system, it doesn't help you score a lot of tries if your defence is not going to help you. As you need to prevent the opposition from also scoring tries to get that bonus point.

The Stormers strong defence might even aid them in future games by stopping opposition teams from scoring any tries, they can then afford to only score 3 tries per game and still get a bonus point.
 
I think it's relative. You need to score a lot more tries if you allow a lot more tries in against you. Once again if we have a period of lapsed judgement in defense for more than 10 minutes and we let in two or three tries I think we are done, which is a huge weakness to have. I am sure we will lose a match to that at some point, but I don't see it happening very often. With the new bonus point system as well, I also think it is less important nowadays to get as many tries as possible. It is a lot more balanced in that regard which I think is better for our national teams, because it instills the importance of good defense into our players. But it also currently means less teams are getting bonus points.

Stormers supporters are also disappointed that we don't get to play the New Zealand teams in the pool stages. They are always entertaining tense encounters which truly test both teams. It is a shame we have to wait another year (or potentially longer if we get put in the Australian playing pool again next year) for all those clashes to happen.

Gee a lot of reading to get through/

I actually think this conservative approach has hindered the Spring Boks in many ways. South Africa is the only country in the world that comes close to producing the quality NZ does in quality and quantity. I respect South Africa rugby a lot, but sometimes players have not being selected or allowed to play to their strengths because of this approach. It's not really sustainable to be completely reliant on your defense either. This can be very bruising, fatiguing and just not realistic, that is why The Stormers have failed to win the competition (and any other SA franchise apart from the Bulls), especially in years faced with a tougher draw, to not even make the play-offs.

So, it's Peyper's fault that the Brumbies were ill disciplined and got a Man-Red Carded (Mann-Rea). The Stormers managed to take advantage of this and put them to the sword. Yes, the TMO didn't make the end an enjoyable experience, but the Stormers won nonetheless. If this Power Ranking was done prior to the Stormers match, the Brumbies would have been on top of the list, and I think the majority would have reached the same consensus that they should be there..

The Stormers were allowed to kill the ball, hold on, get away with murder at the breakdown by Peyper. There was a particular instance where the Stormers were beginning to amount attack when the game was still relatively close and they held on to the ball while Pocock was clearly over it and the player did not release, the Stormers then spread it wide and scored.

Look the Stormers tactically took it to the Brumbies and deserved the win more or less, but they were certainly giving a huge helping hand in that game and allowed to commit murder, the Brumbies punching that bloke was idiotic as well.

Scoring tries is important yes, but with this new bonus point system, it doesn't help you score a lot of tries if your defence is not going to help you. As you need to prevent the opposition from also scoring tries to get that bonus point.

The Stormers strong defence might even aid them in future games by stopping opposition teams from scoring any tries, they can then afford to only score 3 tries per game and still get a bonus point.

You also have to outscore your opposition by 3 tries, which means scoring 3 tries. The Stormers on average have scored 2.0 tries a game.

Attacking rugby is always going to win you more games than defensive rugby. I think the All Blacks are a good example of this and the number of franchise from NZ that have won the competition and/or nearly won it (Canes). The Bulls had a fine blend of attacking rugby and it's by far the most successful franchise from SA and the only franchise to win the competition. SA rugby needs to be more progressive thinking. There's no way the Stormers are a better side than the Crusaders.
 
I have a feeling some people are underestimating the sharks. Guess time will tell.
 
@Cruz_del_Sur With a lot of these teams its quite difficult to say what they are made of, yes. I reckon the Sharks and Jaguares might end up higher than what our rankings illustrate. The Blues, Bulls and then the Aussie sides the lot of them can go either direction very easily but I'm confident enough of 5 teams making the QFs; Highlanders, Chiefs, Crusaders, Brumbies and Stormers. I think the Lions have their toughest games behind them as well but the upcoming game with the Sharks will be telling

@0tago I agree with everything you are saying to some degree and with most to the full extent. For the Stormers our issue has been a lack of quality at 9 and 10 probably even at 15 for considerable periods ITO play-making as well as establishing combinations in the back. Aplon, Senatla and Kolbe together were mezmerizing for the short spell they were together for instance but that was shortlived and the Currie Cup and SR are different beasts. Rob Du Preez at 10 being out is a big hit (on top of both Groom and Vermaak at 9) but, like you said, De Allende coming back will at least add some consistent penetration off of which our outside backs can hopefully feed. I've felt our style of play (backing our defense) is exactly the reason why our players drop like flies year in and year out and we are always facing the play-offs minus some of our best. The frustrating thing is the noises coming out of camp indicates they are well aware of this but changing/adapting or whatever it is we have to do is eluding us.

My hope (as always!) is for next year. We'll be without Schalk Burger who I feel we use as a 'crutch selection' if that makes any sense? Only because the team as a whole is so young. Notshe is by far a more dynamic player and doesn't have a habit of killing off opportunities by standing at 1st reciever more than the fly-half. We have a very green team so every year together is absolute gold. We also have a lot of our main attacking threats out of the competition for various reasons; Du Preez and our halfbacks too injury while Seabelo Senatla is focusing on 7s (and is doing fantastically for the Blitzbokke I might add!) while Kobus van Wyk seems to be having trouble recapturing form at 14 coming back from long term injury. De Allende is also only expected to feature off the bench this weekend only. Under Fleck I hope De Allende gets more license as the guy is more than a battering ram and has a good distribution and a surprising kicking game. Cornal Hendricks is also out injured. We've effectively been fielding a B-backline. So, hopefully either next year or if we are lucky we can get all the pieces back towards the end of the season but its an open question in what sort of form we'll be in and if all the pieces actually fit in the first place.
 
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I actually think this conservative approach has hindered the Spring Boks in many ways. South Africa is the only country in the world that comes close to producing the quality NZ does in quality and quantity. I respect South Africa rugby a lot, but sometimes players have not being selected or allowed to play to their strengths because of this approach. It's not really sustainable to be completely reliant on your defense either. This can be very bruising, fatiguing and just not realistic, that is why The Stormers have failed to win the competition (and any other SA franchise apart from the Bulls), especially in years faced with a tougher draw, to not even make the play-offs.

Surprisingly, when I look at the past four years I found some information that surprised me (Rugby Championship only). We have actually consistently scored the second most points in RC behind the All Blacks in the past four tournaments. Except for last year. Problematically, the one year that our coach tried to change our game plan to try play more running rugby, we scored less points and lost to a number of games, including the one to Japan.

The problem is trying to beat New Zealand at their own game, which we won't do with their skill and expertise they have gained after doing it for twelve years. I don't think we have a particular problem. Obviously as a South African supporter I would love to see more entertaining rugby, but when we have tried it, it has failed. The only example we have had in South Africa of attacking rugby in SR has been the Cheetahs, and it hasn't worked out so well for them. I think more has to do with how great New Zealand rugby has been over the past twelve years.


Attacking rugby is always going to win you more games than defensive rugby. I think the All Blacks are a good example of this and the number of franchise from NZ that have won the competition and/or nearly won it (Canes). The Bulls had a fine blend of attacking rugby and it's by far the most successful franchise from SA and the only franchise to win the competition. SA rugby needs to be more progressive thinking. There's no way the Stormers are a better side than the Crusaders.

Currently, that is the case, yes. But it wasn't the case when England were dominant, nor was it when South Africa won in 2007. As much as the All Blacks are a good example of that, the English in 2003 are a good example of effective defensive rugby. It is just less entertaining. I would say that the Stormers and Crusaders are on par, just different play styles, we are just more boring to watch.:cool:
 
Gee a lot of reading to get through/

I actually think this conservative approach has hindered the Spring Boks in many ways. South Africa is the only country in the world that comes close to producing the quality NZ does in quality and quantity. I respect South Africa rugby a lot, but sometimes players have not being selected or allowed to play to their strengths because of this approach. It's not really sustainable to be completely reliant on your defense either. This can be very bruising, fatiguing and just not realistic, that is why The Stormers have failed to win the competition (and any other SA franchise apart from the Bulls), especially in years faced with a tougher draw, to not even make the play-offs.

Under Heyneke Meyer we tried the expansive approach, and had a variation of success. But with that said, I don't want to go into a debate about the springboks here, as there are a lot more factors to consider and has no application to the current topic at hand. But what I will say, and this is completely my own opinion and viewpoint, The reason the Stormers aren't champions yet is because of the large contingency of coloured (mixed race) people in their administration who was placed there for political reasons.

The Stormers were allowed to kill the ball, hold on, get away with murder at the breakdown by Peyper. There was a particular instance where the Stormers were beginning to amount attack when the game was still relatively close and they held on to the ball while Pocock was clearly over it and the player did not release, the Stormers then spread it wide and scored.

Oh okay, so that's your interpretation. Fair enough. My interpretation was that the Stormers did an excellent job of neutralising Pocock and adapting to the referee's calls more than the Brumbies. I also haven't read any article about Peyper and how he reffed the breakdown. All the focus was on the red card and Leyds' try (which was a TMO howler, not Peyper).

Look the Stormers tactically took it to the Brumbies and deserved the win more or less, but they were certainly giving a huge helping hand in that game and allowed to commit murder, the Brumbies punching that bloke was idiotic as well.

This just doesn't make sense. It just shows how one-eyed you are in your approach to this. More or less?? The Stormers didn't influence the referee, neither did the Brumbies. The Stormers didn't throw a punch, and you have to award Oli Kebble for taking 2 punches on the chin, and still playing on as if nothing happened. The Brumbies lost their cool, and they got punished. To harass your opposition is a tactic teams use, and it worked against the Brumbies. Once again, the Stormers boxed smarter than the Brumbies and got rewarded.

You also have to outscore your opposition by 3 tries, which means scoring 3 tries. The Stormers on average have scored 2.0 tries a game.

Attacking rugby is always going to win you more games than defensive rugby. I think the All Blacks are a good example of this and the number of franchise from NZ that have won the competition and/or nearly won it (Canes). The Bulls had a fine blend of attacking rugby and it's by far the most successful franchise from SA and the only franchise to win the competition. SA rugby needs to be more progressive thinking. There's no way the Stormers are a better side than the Crusaders.

The Bulls are the most conservative team in the history of Super Rugby. I should know, I support them. When we won the trophy, we had a dominant forward pack that mauled the living daylights out of the opposition.

We hardly played attacking rugby. We played 10-man rugby, and we won our games mostly due to penalties and the deadly boot of Morne Steyn. Look at the 2009 Semi-final against the Crusaders. The score was 36-23 in favour of the Bulls. But we only scored 3 tries. What made us good was our kicking game. Fourie Du Preez's box kicking along with Habana chasing them down, and Morne Steyn kicking it over from nearly everywhere.

But then the rules changed, and we (and by we, I mean all of South Africa) had no choice but to change our whole gameplan. We're still changing it, and other than the Aussie and NZ conference all of the SA teams have new coaches apart from Johan Ackerman. This proves that we are still adapting. Scoring tries is something that we want to improve on, and I'm all for that, but I would be damned if that influenced our way of defending. It's all well and good you can run from anywhere and score a try every now and again, but that doesn't help if your opposition can do the same, and you can't stop them.

Winning a game by 6 tries to 4 is the same as winning it without scoring any tries... You will still get just 4 points... If I was a coach I'd rather stick to a more defensive approach than attacking approach.
 
Oh okay, so that's your interpretation. Fair enough. My interpretation was that the Stormers did an excellent job of neutralising Pocock and adapting to the referee's calls more than the Brumbies. I also haven't read any article about Peyper and how he reffed the breakdown. All the focus was on the red card and Leyds' try (which was a TMO howler, not Peyper).



This just doesn't make sense. It just shows how one-eyed you are in your approach to this. More or less?? The Stormers didn't influence the referee, neither did the Brumbies. The Stormers didn't throw a punch, and you have to award Oli Kebble for taking 2 punches on the chin, and still playing on as if nothing happened. The Brumbies lost their cool, and they got punished. To harass your opposition is a tactic teams use, and it worked against the Brumbies. Once again, the Stormers boxed smarter than the Brumbies and got rewarded.



The Bulls are the most conservative team in the history of Super Rugby. I should know, I support them. When we won the trophy, we had a dominant forward pack that mauled the living daylights out of the opposition.

We hardly played attacking rugby. We played 10-man rugby, and we won our games mostly due to penalties and the deadly boot of Morne Steyn. Look at the 2009 Semi-final against the Crusaders. The score was 36-23 in favour of the Bulls. But we only scored 3 tries. What made us good was our kicking game. Fourie Du Preez's box kicking along with Habana chasing them down, and Morne Steyn kicking it over from nearly everywhere.

But then the rules changed, and we (and by we, I mean all of South Africa) had no choice but to change our whole gameplan. We're still changing it, and other than the Aussie and NZ conference all of the SA teams have new coaches apart from Johan Ackerman. This proves that we are still adapting. Scoring tries is something that we want to improve on, and I'm all for that, but I would be damned if that influenced our way of defending. It's all well and good you can run from anywhere and score a try every now and again, but that doesn't help if your opposition can do the same, and you can't stop them.

Winning a game by 6 tries to 4 is the same as winning it without scoring any tries... You will still get just 4 points... If I was a coach I'd rather stick to a more defensive approach than attacking approach.

It's not an interpretation, it's a rule that wasn't applied appropriately, you have to release the ball and why would I be one-eyed towards the Brumbies? I couldn't care less about them, they're Australian. If anything you are one-eyed for not acknowledging clear cut penalties that were not awarded for the away team.

From my memory bank, I seem to remember the Bulls spanking the Chiefs in a final by amassing 60 points. Forgive me for thinking that's a fine blend of attacking rugby.

If you think defensive rugby is better a better approach than attacking rugby just to play for the bonus point, that's a bit silly, you need to win the game first and also score 3 tries first (without even letting a try in). The stats and evidence certainly point to the fact that teams that score more tries generally win more games to the point it's not really subjective.

By the way are you still trying to tell me the Stormers are a better team than the Crusaders, or has that been put to bed?
 
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It's not an interpretation, it's a rule that wasn't applied appropriately, you have to release the ball and why would I be one-eyed towards the Brumbies? I couldn't care less about them, they're Australian. If anything you are one-eyed for not acknowledging clear cut penalties that were not awarded for the away team.

Which rule? or are you referring to the breakdown laws? Referees interpret the laws and apply it to the match in front of them. Hence the difference in interpretation between SH and NH referees and how teams are penalised. It all comes down to interpretation.

From my memory bank, I seem to remember the Bulls spanking the Chiefs in a final by amassing 60 points. Forgive me for thinking that's a fine blend of attacking rugby.

You are correct, it was in 2009. I was at the game at Loftus. The Altitude certainly aided the Bulls in the second half and allowed their forwards to have their way with the chiefs. Victor Matfield was one of the scorers as well as Pierre Spies (as far as I can remember)... I think Habana also scored an intercept try.

If you think defensive rugby is better a better approach than attacking rugby just to play for the bonus point, that's a bit silly, you need to win the game first and the stats and evidence certainly point to the fact that teams that score more tries generally win more games.

By the way are you still trying to tell me the Stormers are a better team than the Crusaders, or has that been put to bed?

We can't use any of the previous year's stats to prove this point as we didn't have the current bonus point system in place... So it would be a pointless.

Where did I once say the Crusaders aren't better than the Stormers or vice versa?? I think it's too early to say who is better than the other teams...

What I will say is that the Crusaders, who are usually slow starters in this tournament seemed to have kicked on another gear. It will be interesting to see how they go in wet and muddy conditions and if they will be able to play with such freedom as they have in the last few games.
 
By the way are you still trying to tell me the Stormers are a better team than the Crusaders, or has that been put to bed?

Are you referring to me? I said my part, I am pretty sure we have already reached the point where we agree to disagree on this.
 
@0tago Well i knew the arrogance would come out eventually :) . Your argument is flawed the lions beat the chiefs at home so if you consider your argument then the lions would be better than the crusaders. But wait you did not put the lions above the crusaders:rolleyes:. The rebels are not a better team than the Sharks. The rebels got smashed by the bulls and the sharks drew with the bulls so why by your argument would you rate the rebels over the bulls and sharks. It just does not make sense and i would say this is clearly hypocrisy.
 
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@0tago Well i knew the arrogance would come out eventually :) . Your argument is flawed the lions beat the chiefs at home so if you consider your argument then the lions would be better than the crusaders. But wait you did not put the lions above the crusaders:rolleyes:. The rebels are not a better team than the Sharks. The rebels got smashed by the bulls and the sharks drew with the bulls so why by your argument would you rate the rebels over the bulls and sharks. It just does not make sense and i would say this is clearly hypocrisy.

It's not fool proof, but there's some substance to it.

It's a fine detail point of separation that can be used, when two teams have not faced each other.

But the strength of the argument is the Crusaders results on the road and attacking displays.
 
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It's not fool proof, but there's some substance to it.

It's a fine detail point of separation that can be used, when two teams have not faced each other.

But the strength of the argument is the Crusaders results on the road and attacking displays.

As opposed to the Lions results on the road and attacking displays??
 

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