Stephen Jones makes a better point then usual

[Bullitt]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rug...icle6927066.ece

Shame he blew it with the squad...

1. Payne - No
2. Hartley - Yes
3. White - No
4. Shaw - Yes
5. Lawes - Yes
6. Haskell - Maybe
7. Moody - Maybe (leaning on yes)
8. Easter - Maybe (leaning on no)
9. Ellis - NO NO NO NO NO!
10. Wilkinson - No
11. Monye - Yes
12. Flutey - Not English
13. Hipkiss - Yes (depending on who's 10 & 12)
14. Armitage - Yes, but as fullback
15. Cipriani - No

 

[Olyy]

Yeah, good points, apart from his predicted team
Pretty much agree with your comments on the team, though i think Haskell and Moody should stick in, they've both played well in the AIs (though that may just be in comparison to a poor rest of team...)
Not sure why he didn't put Armitage at FB
And Cipriani should be nowhere near an England shirt (though that's just because i hate him)
Hodgson should hopefully be our SH from now on, with Care on the bench. Hopefully we can be waving goodbye to Ellis' 25minutes-to-throw-the-damn-ball tactics

 

[mohamed_ali12]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Nov 22 2009, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rug...icle6927066.ece

Shame he blew it with the squad...

1. Payne - No
2. Hartley - Yes
3. White - No
4. Shaw - Yes
5. Lawes - Yes
6. Haskell - Maybe
7. Moody - Maybe (leaning on yes)
8. Easter - Maybe (leaning on no)
9. Ellis - NO NO NO NO NO!
10. Wilkinson - No
11. Monye - Yes
12. Flutey - Not English
13. Hipkiss - Yes (depending on who's 10 & 12)
14. Armitage - Yes, but as fullback
15. Cipriani - No[/b]

1. Payne - no, Flatman
2. Hartley - yes
3. White - haha, umm..... no, Wilson or Vickery
4. Shaw - yes
5. Lawes - no, Borthwick
6. Haskell - nope. Future is a no. 8 for England in my view. Robshaw and Croft are better blindsides
7. Moody - yes
8. Easter - yes
9. Ellis - no, this guy must support Leicester, Hodgson
10. Wilkinson - yes, see how he does with Flutey outside him then if he does crap again geraghty in, flood bench
11. Monye - yes
12. Flutey - yes
13. Hipkiss - no. We don't have any quality 13s. A Flutey, Tait would be too small (28 stone). Hape is our best bet, or Jon Clarke
14. Armitage - no, go for Cueto
15. Cipriani - no way, can't defend fo' ****, go for Armitage

Team of:

Flatman
Hartley
Vickery

Shaw
Borthwick

Croft
Moody
Easter

Hodgson
Wilkinson/Geraghty

Monye
Flutey
Hape
Cueto

Armitage

with a bench of:

Vickery
Mears
Lawes
Haskell
Simpson
Flood/Geraghty
Tait

Rest of 32 man squad:
Corbisiero, Thompson, Kennedy, Robshaw, Rees, Care, Turner-Hall, Clarke, Goode (Alex)

Harsh on Foden, Attwood and Hipkiss but oh well

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ali12 @ Nov 22 2009, 09:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Flutey
Hape[/b]

How would England fans in general feel about these two in the centre seeing as neither are English?

Jones makes one good point in that team England needs to be overhauled. His proposed coaching setup would unquestionably be exceptional but it's not realistic. What exactly is the difference between Woodward, McGeechan and Johnson's new roles? Why would Toby Booth move from head coach to forwards coach of an ageing unit? Why would Edwards leave Wales? Why would Ashton go back to England as a position coach when he was unmercifully kicked out as head coach?

In my opinion, England took a risk putting Johnson in place and it hasn't paid off. Johnson needs to be replaced by somebody who's allowed bring in his own coaching staff. Andrews must go too since he's overseen the debacle. If they want an English head coach, Jim Mallinder is probably the best bet, followed by Toby Booth. If they look outside their borders, Pat Howard or Michael Cheika would be well placed to rip the setup apart and start again since that's what needs to happen.

As for the playing staff, the problem is at 10, 12 and 13; everywhere else, England are competent. Wilkinson is a shadow of his former brilliant self. Perhaps it's time to try Shane Geraghty and persist with him for the next 10 games with Wilko backing him up from the bench. Part of England's problem is they chop and change their playmaker too often and nobody has settled into the role. Flutey is the best option at 12 if England can stomach playing a mercenary in that position. As for 13, God knows. England are woefully short of skillful players in the centre.

 

[Olyy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snoopy snoopy dog dog @ Nov 22 2009, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ali12 @ Nov 22 2009, 09:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Flutey
Hape[/b]

How would England fans in general feel about these two in the centre seeing as neither are English?
[/b][/quote]
The majority are fine with it,
Mainly because if they f**k up we can go "Stupid kiwi, shouldn't even be playing for us" etc.
It's weird having foreigners in an England shirt, but i don't think the majority mind, if the results are there.

 

[jawmalawm24]

Cueto and Armitage look very good at fullback who would all you English fans prefer there because I rate both of them very highly for that position. Also whatever happened to Sheridan is he injured or just not cracked up to be a full time international player.

 

[dullonien]

Sheridan is currently injured. Dislocated his shoulder a few weeks ago. Was a horrible thing to see on tv, he looked in complete agony while they tried to relocate it. They didn't succeed and he needed to go to hospital for it to be popped back in.

 

[Olyy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jawmalawm24 @ Nov 22 2009, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Cueto and Armitage look very good at fullback who would all you English fans prefer there because I rate both of them very highly for that position. Also whatever happened to Sheridan is he injured or just not cracked up to be a full time international player.[/b]

As dullonien, dislocated shoulder playing for Sale, looked very nasty

I think i'd prefer Armitage at FB as he's better in that position i think,
Cueto is a good option to have if we do lose Armitage again (and we have no other international standard FBs at that time), though i do prefer him out on the wing, though he didn't have the best two games this AI, it is his best position

 

[Bullitt]

Oh dear god, why can't people understand that Hape is 1 dimensional and crap (just like every other League player who's converted to a centre... Farrell & Paul spring to mind). Oh wait, that means he'd fit perfectly into the current England team...


Anyway, at least Ali's not going on about how good Banahan is now.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Nov 23 2009, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Oh dear god, why can't people understand that Hape is 1 dimensional and crap (just like every other League player who's converted to a centre... Farrell & Paul spring to mind). Oh wait, that means he'd fit perfectly into the current England team...


Anyway, at least Ali's not going on about how good Banahan is now.[/b]

It's just simple club bias, as you sing the praises of Hartley, Lawes, Geraghty and Foden, i naturally have an affinity to Mears, Barkley, Hape and Banahan - because i watch them more regularly. Having said that, your's is probably a more worthy group of players.

P.S. still think Banahan has what it takes

 

[gingergenius]

Well, Stephen Jones chats the usual bullshit regarding the team, but the coaching setup would be great.

However, Shaun Edwards is committed to Wales and won't become defence coach. Ford was doing a decent job. Dave Ellis is also outstanding.

Andy Robinson would be my first choice as forwards coach, but since he's committed to Scotland, Booth would be good.

Team wise, all fit:

1. Sheridan - world class on his day, not bad off it.
2. Mears - gets around the park very well.
3. Wilson - I think given time he can become world class.
4. Shaw - already world class
5. Borthwick - gets slated but is outstanding in the lineout, he's disciplined as well.
6. Croft - like Sheridan, world class at times and otherwise decent.
7. Rees - Moody has been our best player this Autumn so it's harsh to drop him, but he's not a ballwinner. Rees is the future at 7 if fit and on form. If not, go with Moody.
8. Haskell - hopefully can grow as an 8 because his talent is too much to miss out.
9. Hodgson - if he stays playing well. Danny Care needs to buck his ideas up.
10. Flood - was brilliant last year for us, more reliable than Geraghty and far more exciting than Wilkinson
11. Monye - world class ON THE WING
12. Flutey - he is English because the iRB rules say so. We missed him badly when he wasn't there.
13. Hipkiss - not seen too much from him, but adds strength to the backline and should profit from playing outside more inventive players.
14. Cueto - utterly dependable winger. Never ever lets England down.
15. Armitage - missed him a lot this Autumn. Dependable under the high ball, great kicking game, good in attack.

16. Hartley - I'll keep him on the bench because he is better as an impact player, and England seem to have a problem come the 2nd half.
17. Corbisiero - don't rate any of the other props + he's upcoming.
18. Lawes - a proper impact sub. Should have a long future wearing 4 once Shaw retires.
19. Easter - to contrast a lightweight backrow, a heavy solid guy on the bench.
20. Care - talent wise, should be starting. Can bring a needed fizz to the team off the bench.
21. Wilkinson - offers stability if need be. Hasn't earned the 10 jersey imo.
22. Tait - covers 11,13,14, and 15 plus useful if Hipkiss doesn't prove effective. Otherwise he can make things happen.

All told, a proper coaching setup with a fully fit team and England have the potential to mix it with the best. That team has scrum power, lineout dominance, ball carriers, flair, a dynamic back row that can fetch, and plenty of pace in the back 3.

One thing it lacks is top notch kicking, but Armitage can help Flood out. Also, if Wilkinson misses goals like lately then his kicking game is pretty average because out of hand is nothing special.

 

[Aout]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

12. Flutey - he is English because the iRB rules say so. We missed him badly when he wasn't there.[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

12. Flutey - he is not English at all, but he can play for England because the iRB rules say so. We missed him badly when he wasn't there.[/b]

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Aout @ Nov 23 2009, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

12. Flutey - he is English because the iRB rules say so. We missed him badly when he wasn't there.[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

12. Flutey - he is not English at all, but he can play for England because the iRB rules say so. We missed him badly when he wasn't there.[/b]

[/b][/quote]

:zzz:

 

[Olyy]

Nobody kicks up about an Aussie who lives in Ireland playing for Scotland!

 

[Thingimubob]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Olyy @ Nov 23 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Nobody kicks up about an Aussie who lives in Ireland playing for Scotland![/b]

Yees but at least Flutey's a pretty good player, Parks (who I;m guessing you;re on about ) is shite on the international arena (though good for Glasgow). I mean the man hit himself in teh face with his own up and under! How can you kick up a fuss at such a man?! :lol:

 

[Olyy]

Was thinking of Nathan Hines actually
The Australian who currently plays/lives in Ireland, who previously played/lives in France

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 23 2009, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

2. Mears - gets around the park very well.[/b]

Oh for f*** sake...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 23 2009, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Aout @ Nov 23 2009, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

12. Flutey - he is English because the iRB rules say so. We missed him badly when he wasn't there.[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

12. Flutey - he is not English at all, but he can play for England because the iRB rules say so. We missed him badly when he wasn't there.[/b]

[/b][/quote]

:zzz:
[/b][/quote]

By that reckoning, Joe Ansbro could be the answer for the 13 problem. And he's not got any Scotland caps yet. Let's poach him, quick!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 23 2009, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

17. Corbisiero - don't rate any of the other props + he's upcoming.[/b]

Since when does being American make someone England-Qualified?

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Nov 24 2009, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 23 2009, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2. Mears - gets around the park very well.[/b]

Oh for f*** sake...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 23 2009, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Aout @ Nov 23 2009, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

12. Flutey - he is English because the iRB rules say so. We missed him badly when he wasn't there.[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

12. Flutey - he is not English at all, but he can play for England because the iRB rules say so. We missed him badly when he wasn't there.[/b]

[/b][/quote]

:zzz:
[/b][/quote]

By that reckoning, Joe Ansbro could be the answer for the 13 problem. And he's not got any Scotland caps yet. Let's poach him, quick!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 23 2009, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

17. Corbisiero - don't rate any of the other props + he's upcoming.[/b]

Since when does being American make someone England-Qualified?
[/b][/quote]

I love how you conveniently leave Dylan Hartley out of this debate.

Personally I think England have the right to poach as many Scottish players as they want considering half the Scottish team qualifies via some pussy ass grandma rule. Anyway, Ansboro isn't good enough so he's irrelevant.

It's not for you to decide who is or isn't English, with regards to where they were born. With players like Corbisiero, who've been through the England agegroups and learned most of their rugby in England, I don't see why they can't play for us. And with the Fluteys of this world... why should we be the only nation to ignore their talents when everyone else happily snaps up the skills of foreign players?

 

[monkeypigeon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thingimubob @ Nov 24 2009, 01:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Olyy @ Nov 23 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nobody kicks up about an Aussie who lives in Ireland playing for Scotland![/b]

Yees but at least Flutey's a pretty good player, Parks (who I;m guessing you;re on about ) is shite on the international arena (though good for Glasgow). I mean the man hit himself in teh face with his own up and under! How can you kick up a fuss at such a man?! :lol:
[/b][/quote]

Parks lives in Ireland?

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 24 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I love how you conveniently leave Dylan Hartley out of this debate.[/b]

London wit. Priceless

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Personally I think England have the right to poach as many Scottish players as they want considering half the Scottish team qualifies via some pussy ass grandma rule. Anyway, Ansbro isn't good enough so he's irrelevant.[/b]

But Flood is, eh?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

It's not for you to decide who is or isn't English, with regards to where they were born. With players like Corbisiero, who've been through the England agegroups and learned most of their rugby in England, I don't see why they can't play for us. And with the Fluteys of this world... why should we be the only nation to ignore their talents when everyone else happily snaps up the skills of foreign players?[/b]

On the Hartley front, yes he was born in New Zealand... With English parentage. In other words he actually has some sort of link with England other then just havcing lived here for a little while.

Flutey & Corbisiero on the other hand are foreign with only "residency" (which is the most bullshit qualifier I've ever heard of) backing their case up. In Fluteys case, he doesn't even live or play in England. He's a Maori in France. Not an Englishman.

And Corbisiero is toss anyway. Even his rapping leaves a lot to be desired.

I'm not saying England should be the only ones to "ignore" talented players - Everyone should stop playing foreigners. So that's no more Fijians in the ABs, no more Zimbabwain players for the Springboks and no more South Africans playing for England. If Flutey wanted to be an international, he should have been a bit better and won an All Blacks cap. Not becoming an England player at the arse end of his career and stopping our own young talent getting an opportunity.