Super 14 / Heineken Cup

[roadtogundagai]

Now, this is just an idea, but could there be mutual benefits to be had from both the provincial sides, and super 14 clubs in the short term, and Ireland in the long term if some sort of deal could be brokered between the parties concerned for some sort of "lend lease" agreement with a pool or the non-international players from super 14 to be loaned to the provinces during at least part of the Super 14 off season, and a "draft" (Jez i sound like a yank) of international players for the Heineken Cup (similar to the deal which took Dan Carter to Perpignan, without the bundles of cash)?

This, short term, obviously, would increase an Irish hold on the Heineken Cup, and with that it would increase interest in provincial/celtic league rugby. In the longer term the youth teams of the provinces, and most of the players would benefit from training and playing with Southern Hemisphere internationals so would become better players themselves, and this of course would give Ireland an even better pool of players of the six nations, and ultimately a better chance of winning the World Cup.

A strong selling point to Super 14 teams and boards would be much similar to the above, as with european/celtic league experience their players would return to Super 14 with more experience of playing with and against different international players.

And perhaps come B & I Lions time, younger players of the Lions may not be over awed when playing against a tri-nations team as they would have had experience plying with and against tri-nations players in the Heineken Cup and or Celtic League.

Just an idea, but thoughts of others would be nice.

 

[monkeypigeon]

Ha, interesting to say the least.

Don't think it would ever be functionable, seeing as there's a tastey amount of talent coming through the Irish and Welsh systems at the moment and with only 4 'elite' teams I'd hate to see many foriegn players reducing chances. At the moment I think the IRFU tell the subsidary branches and management to limit the number of foriegn players to 3 at most in any one match.

That's why at Munster last year if Mafi and Howlett and Melck were playing Warwick wouldn't be given a place in the team.

The team that the player is contracted to also wouldn't be up for risking injury and considering the length of the rugby season on either side of the world burnout out would be a likelyhood if such a scheme were to happen.

And anyway, the SANZAR nations have too much talent ever to be bothered with such an idea.

Interesting thought though.

 

[roadtogundagai]

Like I said, it was only an idea and I can see where you are coming from but for the like of Ulster and especially "feeder province" Connaught any sort of talent, no matter where they come form is better than no talent!
I know that the Kolpac system in county cricket has reduced younger talent coming through the ranks and my idea would have some given to similar fears, but if it was limited properly, or administered in such a way as not to infringe on youth development it might not be all bad. A prime example is Riki Flutey. Also the situation with Rocky Elsom having to go back to Oz for his international place could be avoided.
With the likes of Best, Bowe and Harrison leaving Ulster for more money, and lets be honest with Bowe for the development of his game and a more realistic chance of winning things, (similarly with a lot if not all half decent connaught players) it would be the only way to help Ulster and Connaught develop in the club/franchise era we are now in. (Unless the IRFU carves what financial subsistence pie it hands out so that the province with the most independent finance (either Leinster or Munster) gets the least, with Ulster and Connaught getting bigger slices of the pie to help retain and develop players and coaching staff.

 

[monkeypigeon]

again I see where you're coming from with Connacht and Ulster falling a bit short on talent in recent years.

But looking at Ulster now I think if the new management do a their job right you should have fantastic team. Backrow of Ferris, pollock and Chris Henry should be something you try to keep together for the next 10 years! A couple of backrow players, a better sh and a decent second row to go next to Ryan Caldwell and you have a fantastic young squad in your hands. but again the challange is with keeping them together.

And I was under the impression that Ulster get the same funding as Munsterv and Leinster and I know that they have one of the best match attendances in the Magners League and a number of shcools which are historically stong in rugby so I suspect the current blip is just that, a blip.

I agree with the need for Connacht's funding to be upped, and some system like the one you just mentioned would certainl;y help. But if you look at it this way. The only players who would be sent to Connacht by the SANZAR teams would b ones for development and they ccertainly wouldn't risk any internationals. And when you consider that that's exactly what's already happening in connacht with Munster and Leinster sending over their surplus for development you have to ask how much that would help.

Its a shame that the worl recession had to happen at a time like now or else I think Connacht's funding would be upped. They're producing more connacht-grown players than before which was evident by the increased number in the U-20 squad, but more importantly, last year, Ian Keatley, Sean Cronin and Fionn Carr who I see as fantastic Irish prospects (particularly the first two) all extended their contracts for Connacht by two years because the surplus from the Munster and particularly the Leinster acedemy is so large that it's either to England (where they'll be effectively ignored for international duty) or Connacht in the hope that Connacht will become more competive soon or that they'll show their talent and be brought home to Munster or Leinster.

On that point I'm surprised that Fionn carr wasn't asked to move to Ulster. They could do with a young talented wing and he be paid more attention there too and get Heineken Cup experience.

And back to the idea, again it's interesting but the better management of the system at home (like you kind of suggested) is probably a more practical solution.

 

[Wally]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roadtogundagai @ Jul 23 2009, 02:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Now, this is just an idea, but could there be mutual benefits to be had from both the provincial sides, and super 14 clubs in the short term, and Ireland in the long term if some sort of deal could be brokered between the parties concerned for some sort of "lend lease" agreement with a pool or the non-international players from super 14 to be loaned to the provinces during at least part of the Super 14 off season, and a "draft" (Jez i sound like a yank) of international players for the Heineken Cup (similar to the deal which took Dan Carter to Perpignan, without the bundles of cash)?

This, short term, obviously, would increase an Irish hold on the Heineken Cup, and with that it would increase interest in provincial/celtic league rugby. In the longer term the youth teams of the provinces, and most of the players would benefit from training and playing with Southern Hemisphere internationals so would become better players themselves, and this of course would give Ireland an even better pool of players of the six nations, and ultimately a better chance of winning the World Cup.

A strong selling point to Super 14 teams and boards would be much similar to the above, as with european/celtic league experience their players would return to Super 14 with more experience of playing with and against different international players.

And perhaps come B & I Lions time, younger players of the Lions may not be over awed when playing against a tri-nations team as they would have had experience plying with and against tri-nations players in the Heineken Cup and or Celtic League.

Just an idea, but thoughts of others would be nice.[/b]

Mate as far as loaning non international players in the Super 14 off season I think it's a damn great idea. After the current ridiculously short Super 14 season these players who don't make the Wallabies are forced to ply their trade in the far inferior and non professional leagues in Queensland and New South Wales. Most of these guys are more than capable of playing Heineken Cup rugby, so I see it as a win win situation for everyone involved.

 

[roadtogundagai]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Monkeypigeon @ Jul 22 2009, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

again I see where you're coming from with Connacht and Ulster falling a bit short on talent in recent years.

But looking at Ulster now I think if the new management do a their job right you should have fantastic team. Backrow of Ferris, pollock and Chris Henry should be something you try to keep together for the next 10 years! A couple of backrow players, a better sh and a decent second row to go next to Ryan Caldwell and you have a fantastic young squad in your hands. but again the challange is with keeping them together.

And I was under the impression that Ulster get the same funding as Munsterv and Leinster and I know that they have one of the best match attendances in the Magners League and a number of shcools which are historically stong in rugby so I suspect the current blip is just that, a blip.

I agree with the need for Connacht's funding to be upped, and some system like the one you just mentioned would certainl;y help. But if you look at it this way. The only players who would be sent to Connacht by the SANZAR teams would b ones for development and they ccertainly wouldn't risk any internationals. And when you consider that that's exactly what's already happening in connacht with Munster and Leinster sending over their surplus for development you have to ask how much that would help.

Its a shame that the worl recession had to happen at a time like now or else I think Connacht's funding would be upped. They're producing more connacht-grown players than before which was evident by the increased number in the U-20 squad, but more importantly, last year, Ian Keatley, Sean Cronin and Fionn Carr who I see as fantastic Irish prospects (particularly the first two) all extended their contracts for Connacht by two years because the surplus from the Munster and particularly the Leinster acedemy is so large that it's either to England (where they'll be effectively ignored for international duty) or Connacht in the hope that Connacht will become more competive soon or that they'll show their talent and be brought home to Munster or Leinster.

On that point I'm surprised that Fionn carr wasn't asked to move to Ulster. They could do with a young talented wing and he be paid more attention there too and get Heineken Cup experience.

And back to the idea, again it's interesting but the better management of the system at home (like you kind of suggested) is probably a more practical solution.[/b]

The gulf between Ulster and Munster/Leinster gets bigger as every season goes by, I am afraid. Club Ulster cannot attract or keep its bigger name players. Ulster and Connaught need some sort of injection to try and level the playing field with the other two provinces. Youth potential is all very good, but all it is is potential. Pollock is already injury prone at a young age, and after his Lions performances Ferris will be off to England or France sooner rather than later. Tommy Bowe and Neil Best both did the same and I can't blame them. Ulster seems to be bringing in players year by year who are just there to either happily tread water until retirement (a la BJ Botha) or because they aren't wanted any where else (Timoci Nagusa, Clinton Schifcofske, Paul Steinmetz, Dan Touhy)!

Munster get Jean DeVilliers and Ulster get Dan Touhy! I know they play in different positions, but you can see the type of player either province attracts is hugely different as well. Leinster have youth like Sexton and Ulster have O'Connor.

I know my idea would never happen, but when you are a long suffering Ulster fan, all you have is hope. We were lucky to get the third HC spot last season, so improvment s need to be made, both playing and coaching wise. And I am not sure a PE teacher is the way to go!