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The concussion issue

I think the Guardian have massively overegged the pudding and am rather irritable with them as a result.

Yes, its a problem. Yes, its a bigger one than we, or anyone, thought a couple of years ago. Yes, the response might be better.

But no, its not a secret. Attitudes have changed and are changing, albeit slower than one might wish. I don't think the game is trying to bury things particularly.

Suppose I probably shouldn't let my irritation at the Grauniad being a pack of whiny sods detract from a very serious issue though.
 
Da Grappla said:
The Guardian are liberals, aren't they?
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Yep, one of their columnists yesterday called Canada a "rightwing hellhole". This is true if your sort of on the Marxist-Leninist end of the political spectrum.

If you've ever been to Canada you'll get huge laugh's out of this article, which was rightly called out by columnists here that are even on the centre left. Nor does it mention that many of the provincial legislatures are controlled by centre left or left wing parties.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/13/crack-smoking-toronto-mayor-rob-ford-epitomises-canada?CMP=twt_gu
 
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Canadian politics? I approve.

6a00d8341bf8f353ef017d415542b1970c-pi
 
On the concussion issue, it is definately a concern for rugby, but sports in bigger trouble are Gridiron and Ice Hockey, where it is becoming a near plague on the sport. I'm really not sure how much they can do, if Gridiron went back to more tackling rather than just hitting it would be a start. When I was a kid guys still tackled now everyone lines up for the huge hit it's like car accidents out there.

Even baseball is making changes to the rules governing plays at home plate where collisions were allowed between Catchers and runners, that is now changing and no longer will be allowed, partially due to avoidance of concussions(amongst other injuries).

I really don't know what Rugby can do other than getting stricter on high tackles, and tackles in the air. Or getting stricter on this...HAHAHA Chabal only gets a yellow for knocking a guy out.....

 
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How to deal with concussion is a huge problem in rugby. While the iRB's return to play protocol was well intentioned, it's not working. Just look at George Smith and Brian O'Driscoll returning to plays in the Lions series and against France in the 6 Nations for clear examples of this.

I found the article at this link a good read:
http://www.thescore.ie/brain-injury-and-sport-conference-nowinski-rugby-1220561-Dec2013/

"The idea of having a time limit is morally wrong. It's more important to diagnose correctly than diagnose quickly.
"In this part of the world there's a tradition of limited substitutions, unlike back home where in a sport like American football they're unlimited.
Tradition is a terrible reason to give people avoidable brain damage."
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While I wouldn't like to see it go as far as American football or Ice Hockey, I think rugby must look at some form of rolling substitutions in the interest of player safety. We need independent doctors passing players to return and if it takes longer than 5 minutes, as it should, so be it. The long term health of players like Brian O'Driscoll and George Smith is far more important than the result of one game.

Another good read on the subject:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/using-the-head-137010.html
 
snoopy snoopy dog dog said:
How to deal with concussion is a huge problem in rugby. While the iRB's return to play protocol was well intentioned, it's not working. Just look at George Smith and Brian O'Driscoll returning to plays in the Lions series and against France in the 6 Nations for clear examples of this.

I found the article at this link a good read:
http://www.thescore.ie/brain-injury-and-sport-conference-nowinski-rugby-1220561-Dec2013/


While I wouldn't like to see it go as far as American football or Ice Hockey, I think rugby must look at some form of rolling substitutions in the interest of player safety. We need independent doctors passing players to return and if it takes longer than 5 minutes, as it should, so be it. The long term health of players like Brian O'Driscoll and George Smith is far more important than the result of one game.

Another good read on the subject:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/using-the-head-137010.html
Click to expand...

Perhaps something similar to how League uses the Interchange bench, I would recommend adding concussion like symptoms to the blood sub rule but unfortunately some arsehole would probably take advantage of that tactically aka Bloodgate a few years back.
 
TRF_LittleGuy said:
Perhaps something similar to how League uses the Interchange bench, I would recommend adding concussion like symptoms to the blood sub rule but unfortunately some arsehole would probably take advantage of that tactically aka Bloodgate a few years back.
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I think that's a good solution. In my opinion we should go to 24 man squads at the pro level with around 15 interchanges allowed. In essence that's 9 subs of whom 6 can be replaced again. It gives players a breather when required for fatigue or to properly assess them for injuries.
 
snoopy snoopy dog dog said:
I think that's a good solution. In my opinion we should go to 24 man squads at the pro level with around 15 interchanges allowed. In essence that's 9 subs of whom 6 can be replaced again. It gives players a breather when required for fatigue or to properly assess them for injuries.
Click to expand...

I could never agree to that!

I understand and agree with the concerns about concussion but MORE substitutes?

Absolutely not.........the game is now being ruined from about the 60th minute as subs are introduced at different time and especially in Internationals where the bench is emptied up to the 79th minute so they can have their cheap caps.

What should happen is that if you are concussed you are subbed from the players on the bench as at present and then assessed and if that takes 10/15 minutes then so be it but a doctor should determine whether you are allowed back on not the team trainer/physio who are not independent and do not necessarily have to look out for the interests of the player as they are paid by the club!
 
I really resent the idea that people are ignorant of the fact that hitting your head damages your brain.

Unless you are shocked when you see a boxer slurring then you can't claim ignorance.
This idea that players don't know about concussion is patronising in the extreme.
The problem is that there is no neutral party to force a team to remove players with head injuries.
 
The very obvious proposal here is that they start getting a neutral doctor to all top level games. If they're not happy, the player is off. That's it. I see no problem with allowing a reversible sub period for assessment, if assessment lies in the hands of a neutral doctor who understands that if they're not happy, the player doesn't go back on.

Unfortunately, that's pretty expensive. Next obvious one is to train all refs on recognising concussion.

But - and here's a thing - the first time I read up on concussion on wiki/NHS site, couple of years back when I thought I might have one, it said that if it was mild and the first one I'd be ok to return within a week. Would that be medical advice today? I'm guessing not. The entire world got it wrong. Not just us.
 
Exactly, the advice is quite fluid at this point.

The other issue at hand here is that on the back of the NFL lawsuit there are a lot of journalists and lawyers looking to make a name for themselves.
 
TRF_LittleGuy said:
On the concussion issue, it is definately a concern for rugby, but sports in bigger trouble are Gridiron and Ice Hockey, where it is becoming a near plague on the sport. I'm really not sure how much they can do, if Gridiron went back to more tackling rather than just hitting it would be a start. When I was a kid guys still tackled now everyone lines up for the huge hit it's like car accidents out there.

Even baseball is making changes to the rules governing plays at home plate where collisions were allowed between Catchers and runners, that is now changing and no longer will be allowed, partially due to avoidance of concussions(amongst other injuries).

I really don't know what Rugby can do other than getting stricter on high tackles, and tackles in the air. Or getting stricter on this...HAHAHA Chabal only gets a yellow for knocking a guy out.....

Click to expand...


Wow at that article. Does the Guardian hate Canada or something? I mean to print something so offbase and out of context indicates some sort of hate on for Canada, especially after the vitriol that was printer during the Winter Olympics. I witnessed and experienced some appalling racism while living in the UK and you don't see me judging everyone or writing a slanted article.

Regardless, back on topic now. I feel rugby is actually in a much better spot to combat head injuries than hockey or American football. There is already a rule against high tackles above the shoulder and all tackles must have an attempt to wrap. In my viewing and playing experience, i have rarely seen a head injury result when both rules are strictly enforced (with spear and dump tackle rules as well.) Normally if a player is injured in a fair tackle, its either happenstance or poor technique/body position from the tackled player.)

Example, Tuilangi on Cudmore was a high hit with no attempt to wrap. Should equal at minimum a yellow.

Where rugby needs to introduce a rule is identifying when concussion protocol needs to be implemented. The NHLs quiet room for 15 minutes has worked out very well if all other parts of a its policies have failed.
 
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IMO, you just suffered a concussion, you're out. You'll be back at the next match and that's it.

In life, there are more week matches than sweet scratches.

And please, let me ask about the spear or dump tackle. From what I know, you can't lift an opposing player and wheeling his body breaking down the parallel line with the ground. Am I wrong?

The dump tackle I guess is opening your grip and let the gravity does its work. Could be it?

Are there more forbidden tackles in rugby?
 
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The dump tackle is lifting a player off the ground then slamming their back into the ground.

The tip tackle is a tackle where the player pivots to the extent that his head is below his hips.
 
Da Grappla said:
IMO, you just suffered a concussion, you're out. You'll be back at the next match and that's it.In life, there are more week matches than sweet scratches.And please, let me ask about the spear or dump tackle. From what I know, you can't lift an opposing player and wheeling his body breaking down the parallel line with the ground. Am I wrong?The dump tackle I guess is opening your grip and let the gravity does its work. Could be it?Are there more forbidden tackles in rugby?
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The main problem is identifying a concussion. Not all blows to the head cause damage and not all instances where a player has been knocked groggy has a concussion. As well, not all concessions are healed in a week. Perfect example is Sidney Crosby wjo suffered a rather innocent blow to the head and was out almost out for a year.The 15 minute quiet room is a actually a good way at identifying a concussion as well as severity.

All the current tackle/contact rules adequately prevent head injuries if enforced.Currently banned interactions
:-Tackles above the shoulder
-horse collar, spear, tip and dump tackles
-must have attempt to wrap
-no tackling player in the air (including lineouts)
-mark rule inside 22
-calls against shoulder charge/elbow to head by ball carrier
-general head shot rules in rucks/mauls
-no old school clearing out at rucks
-new scrum rules that decrease instance of collapsed scrumsAll of the above already exist and actively prevent head injuries.
 
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