The European Constitution/Reform Treaty/Lisbon Treaty/that bloody treaty.

[Prestwick]

Fact attack on the whole <strike>cluster-fck</strike> glorious European process by your former colonial rulers and genreally superior members of the human race (the Welsh included), courtesy of Wikipedia:

Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe
Subsequent rejections of the above document by the French and Dutch by popular referendum.
Treaty of Lisbon.
Subsequent rejection of the above document by the Irish by popular referendum.

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Er..I..well..dear god can we just get this over and done with. This is like a road that never ends. Remember that film of those two kids abandoned in the Australian outback? Thats what this feels like.

Here in Bizzaro World/the European Union, I honestly don't care anymore, can we just get a yes/no decision? Please? Do we really have to go back to the Irish repeatedly until they belatedly say yes, al la the Nice Treaty? Am I the only person here who finds it particulary perverse that the only nation in the European Union who held a referendum for the Lisbon Treaty gets labelled as being undemocratic for blocking everything for the other 26 members who didn't hold popular referendums?

 

[Cymro]

The EU is a big pile of gash and only benefits mostly Eastern European countries!

The Lisbon treaty is poor and to be honest let the Irish do what they want!

 

[shazbooger]

I have to say I was furious as the result started to come in. This was a yes vote waiting to happen, and they government new it. As things happened though the no vote (from across Europe) mobilised here, spun tail of woe and fear for all Irish people, and the government simply failed to respond.

The No campaign included a mix of missinformation, fear, and played on the frustrations of those who had been negatively affected by the EU (farmers and fishermen) quota's. Poster campaings including classics like "Dont be bullied Vote No" and "People died for your freedom dont throw it away" were compared to the usual fair from the main parties ................. a huge picture of the politician with a

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[Prestwick]

Am I the only person here who finds it particulary perverse that the only nation in the European Union who held a referendum for the Lisbon Treaty gets labelled as being undemocratic for blocking everything for the other 26 members who didn't hold popular referendums?[/b]

Your right, but the main reason for holding off on referendums of this sort is that they are so confusing the population end up voting for a different reason entirely. 25% of the no vote here, voted no because they didnt know what they were voting for. Another significant percentage was a protest against European agricultural quotas, while another one was a protest against the Irish government or Europe in general.
[/b]

Surely then, the onus is on you, the yes camp, with the majority of business and trade unions in Ireland on your side, to adequately and clearly set out the case for Ireland voting yes.

There is still no single, official, bottom line document from either the European Commission or from any national goverment in the Union outlining:

a) What the Lisbon treaty is.
b Point by point in an impartial and bipartisan way, outlining what it means for you, your community and your country.

Why the Irish government didn't take a leaf out of the book of Ulster and simply send a copy of the constitution with a plain english guide explaining it to every household in Ireland I don't know. It would cost allot. Yes, it would cost an absolute bomb, like tens of millions of Euro monopoly money, but think about it. This is a national referendum here on something which could change Ireland forever.

If the European Commission and the Irish government had treated the Irish people like adults and explained to them clearly what Lisbon was, you'd be surprised at the vote result. And I bet you anything it'd be a yes vote.

Thats why I salute those 25% who voted no because they didn't understand what Lisbon was about. You may think that irresponsible, but what is the alternative? Not voting at all and wasting a vote? Not understanding Lisbon and voting yes?

Those people voted no because nobody had adequately came to them and explained to them what the Lisbon treaty was. It is your civic duty to vote "no" in a simple "yes/no" vote if you cannot adequately say that you understand the arguements in favour of a yes vote. I myself would find it extremely irresponsible to not vote all because the 'yes' camp and the European Commission could not or would not get its act together.

EDIT: Thus, I would vote no. And I'd continue to vote no until someone over there in Brussels or in London sends me a definitive copy of the treaty with a plain english guide (checked and approved by the campaign for plain english) explaining in an impartial and bipartisan manner what this bloody peice of paper actually is.

If you think thats bad, spare a thought for the democracies of this world for which voting is not just a matter of civic duty, but the law.

 

[shazbooger]

Ahhhhh in general I agree with everything you say. My reasons for voting yes were fairly simple;

1. Every "normal" politician said thats the way we should vote. Daft reason but when you see the other extremes of socialists, dissidents and communists suggesting we vote the other way I just couldnt identify with it.
2. I strongly dissagreed with the No votes campaigning method. "Avoid a super european state", "Keep the foreigners OVER THERE" (not a slogan but a sentiment), "No to the end of our Neutrality"
3. Europe has been good to us, why spit in their faces now?

On your other points. All valid, but the EU and Irish gov would have to send a copy of the European constitution, the Irish constitution and the amendments to both, as set out in the Lisbon treaty to each household. In general to be used as fuel for a fire, or to be dumped in the recycling bin. Probably one of the largest ecological disasters in the history of the country . Instead they send a fairly meaninless leaflet of about 4 pages that explained nothing.

The thing is, it was just too confusing. I'm a fairly intelligent guy, literate, and I've worked through some fairly massive global contracts in my time. This was all gobbildy gook to me.

All they had to do was nullify the NO campaigns negative messages and all would have been okay. Experts were rolled out to refute this that and the other, but there is nothing like a bit of fear to swing the undecided votes.

Your right though. There is still no clear concensus here as to whether the NO result was a good thing or bad thing for Europe. It definately wasnt an anti-europe vote so if they can allieviate the concerns regarding Irish neutrality, possibly the tax system and the commissioner issue, it would cruise through a second time.

 

[Prestwick]

Theres a point where the various heads of state and the Commission have to address the serious flaws of the European Union set up. For example, clamping down on excess and corruption in the European Parliament, taking steps to make the damn Commission electable or at the very least appointed from the European Parliament before going around appointing Foreign representatives and Presidents. The power of the Council of Ministers must become far more transparent, ministers must prepare to be questioned by their elected peers either at home or at the Parliament.

They're putting the cart before the horse here, I am perfectly confident that if change and proposals for integration were being presented by an elected Commission before being scrutinised and passed by a clean and efficient European Parliament, then many more people would be in favour of the European Union because then they can see the process in action, much like how you and I can switch on the television and see our respective leaders take a battering in our respective legislatures.

 

[shazbooger]

Sounds like perfectly good sense to me ................... it'll never happen.

 

[gingergenius]

Fact attack on the whole <strike>cluster-fck</strike> glorious European process by your former colonial rulers and genreally superior members of the human race (the Welsh included), courtesy of Wikipedia:

Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe
Subsequent rejections of the above document by the French and Dutch by popular referendum.
Treaty of Lisbon.
Subsequent rejection of the above document by the Irish by popular referendum.

---

Er..I..well..dear god can we just get this over and done with. This is like a road that never ends. Remember that film of those two kids abandoned in the Australian outback? Thats what this feels like.

Here in Bizzaro World/the European Union, I honestly don't care anymore, can we just get a yes/no decision? Please? Do we really have to go back to the Irish repeatedly until they belatedly say yes, al la the Nice Treaty? Am I the only person here who finds it particulary perverse that the only nation in the European Union who held a referendum for the Lisbon Treaty gets labelled as being undemocratic for blocking everything for the other 26 members who didn't hold popular referendums?
[/b]

Who says democracy's so great anyway?

All it comes up with are wack-ass decisions; half the people don't bother to vote and half of those who do are so heavily influenced by media/ appearances that they vote in the worst candidate anyway.

As far as I'm concerned 'democracy' needs to go under some serious alterations to iron out all of its hypocrisies. Its another one of those liberal ideals that people think is a massive goal that needs to be acheived, and once they've got it they sit back on their laurels as if everything will now sort itself out. Technically now Brits have human rights and universal suffrage and so on, we're all equal. Of course this is ******** because rich people get to avoid hospital waiting lines and state schools by accidents of birth... I could go on...

 

[redunderthebed]

I think the main thing that grates with me is that only Ireland let the people decide on the future of the constitution which will profoundly affect the EU and by extention the people who live in it.I feel that the politicians want <strike>The money each state can get</strike> the EU and reform of the EU at all costs and damn the people we will just shove it through the parliament which we know in the western world (and even more so in some cases in the third world) to be a very poor arbiter of legislation unless the party in power has to engage with the opposition which doesnt happen much.

That isnt right and well done Ireland you stood up and exercised your democratic right for yourselves and the 26 other states citizens that where denied that right.Until as Prestwick said they treat those of voting age of the EU as adults and explain this treaty and each of its states citizens get to vote on the treaty it does not deserve to see the light of day its seems sneaky and dishonest in a way.