The Forbidden Fruits of Louis Rees-Zammit ; )

bushytop

First XV
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
4,099
Reaction score
1,652
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

London Welsh

Its common knowledge Wales Online can be a ‘little’ parochial and can post an article or two that can act a ‘bit’ inflammatory and sometimes with little to back it up... and in fairness that could well be the case here.

So as we all know... and indeed it is something that has caused much consternation within the game (particularly with Argentinians... that isn’t shade btw @Cruz_del_Sur ;)) the rules around international representation can be a little ‘shady’. I for one will go to my grave rueing the day the Vunipola’s chose to represent England over Wales but there are many of these cases and sometimes (particularly in the case of the Vunipola’s when the players weren’t actually born in the country but only moved here as kids) it just simply is what it is... and you can somewhat understand the lure.

But... (& as prefixed around WoL’s somewhat less than stellar reputation it could be smoke without fire) if the RFU (through Eddie Jones and Richard Hill) are putting in serious work to lure LRZ to the ‘Dark Side’ ;) it (maybe only for a Welsh man) seems a bridge too far. I hope the lad sticks to his guns and goes on to wear the Three Feathers with pride and accomplishment... but if it goes the other way and he ends up playing for England, well... I might actually give up on the game. I can ‘understand’ if a guy from one country ‘chooses’ to rep someone else if he knows he will struggle to make the grade at his nation of birth... or if his country of birth isn’t one of the top tier nations (& my judgement here could well be swayed by my subjective viewpoint)... but if those two things don’t apply and the player simply opts for what in this case i would imagine would be financial incentive, the only endgame I can see is.... wwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy down the road England (as the financial powerhouse) being a world XV and the other national teams being made up of the rest (whom England didn’t fancy). I know this probably sounds overly alarmist... and in fairness if you’ve read my posts in the past you’ll know that I am particularly fond of hyperbole, so understand that when reading the ‘endgame’ scenario... but this story just leaves a real bitter taste in the mouth.

Here’s the link:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-boss-eddie-jones-bids-17514334
 
Last edited:

MikeTheNative

First XV
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
1,166
Reaction score
327
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

It's not new, Nathan Hughes has already said that financial was a motivator for him declaring for England and while they will never come and out right say it. I imagine money will also be a factor when you have players moving from NZ to play for teams of their grandparents birth etc. While it's not as much as England the money would have helped sway the likes of Thomas Franics and Gareth Anscombe in playing for Wales (not that I'm saying it was the main factor though).
 

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,000,782
Reaction score
6,164
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

It's 2020, can we not leave clickbait wales online BS in the last decade?

While it's not as much as England the money would have helped sway the likes of Thomas Franics and Gareth Anscombe in playing for Wales (not that I'm saying it was the main factor though).
Wales tempted Francis away from England by offering less money than England?

Francis was never on the England radar, anywho
 

bushytop

First XV
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
4,099
Reaction score
1,652
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

London Welsh

It's not new, Nathan Hughes has already said that financial was a motivator for him declaring for England and while they will never come and out right say it. I imagine money will also be a factor when you have players moving from NZ to play for teams of their grandparents birth etc. While it's not as much as England the money would have helped sway the likes of Thomas Franics and Gareth Anscombe in playing for Wales (not that I'm saying it was the main factor though).
Obvs... and I feel I’ve accounted for the cases you’ve mentioned with:

“I can ‘understand’ if a guy from one country ‘chooses’ to rep someone else if he knows he will struggle to make the grade at his nation of birth (Gareth Anscombe & Tomos Francis)... or if his country of birth isn’t one of the top tier nation (Nathan Hughes)...”

and as I also said, maybe I’m excusing those due to subjective reasoning. This case just seems to be on another level (maybe to me at least).
 

bushytop

First XV
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
4,099
Reaction score
1,652
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

London Welsh

It's 2020, can we not leave clickbait wales online BS in the last decade?
Sorry, i thought the rule was it was okay until 2030... my bad ;).
 

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,000,782
Reaction score
6,164
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

the only endgame I can see is.... wwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy down the road England (as the financial powerhouse) being a world XV and the other national teams being made up of the rest (whom England didn’t fancy).
Pretty funny considering the first thing Pivac did for Wales was cap two bang average Kiwis ;)
 

bushytop

First XV
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
4,099
Reaction score
1,652
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

London Welsh

Pretty funny considering the first thing Pivac did for Wales was cap two bang average Kiwis ;)
Well that’s part of my argument, maybe I didn’t communicate it properly. I can somewhat understand a player choosing to play for a nation if there is no way they’re gonna get picked for their actual country (as in the case of Halaholo and McNichol... or many of the English, Irish and Scottish players who were born south of the equator). I just feel with LRZ who was born and raised in Wales (a tier one country, who wins Grandslams and competes at World Cups) a country whom he will no doubt be good enough to rep... its different.
 

MikeTheNative

First XV
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
1,166
Reaction score
327
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

Pretty funny considering the first thing Pivac did for Wales was cap two bang average Kiwis ;)
Must have been learning from Eddie with Heinz and Shields. :p

Obvs... and I feel I’ve accounted for the cases you’ve mentioned with:

“I can ‘understand’ if a guy from one country ‘chooses’ to rep someone else if he knows he will struggle to make the grade at his nation of birth (Gareth Anscombe & Tomos Francis)... or if his country of birth isn’t one of the top tier nation (Nathan Hughes)...”

and as I also said, maybe I’m excusing those due to subjective reasoning. This case just seems to be on another level (maybe to me at least).
I don't think it's too much difference and to be honest i think it's a bit of Welsh bias creeping in. All unions try to source the best players available to them, that's modern rugby (whether you agree or disagree with it). A bit 'unsporting'? Probably yes, but the precedent has already been set.
 

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,000,782
Reaction score
6,164
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

I don't think it's too much difference and to be honest i think it's a bit of Welsh bias creeping in. All unions try to source the best players available to them, that's modern rugby (whether you agree or disagree with it). A bit 'unsporting'? Probably yes, but the precedent has already been set.
100%
Painting England as some big evil is weird considering the WRU tried to do exactly this with Underhill and Morgan, and succeeded with Cuthbert.
 

bushytop

First XV
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
4,099
Reaction score
1,652
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

London Welsh

I don't think it's too much difference and to be honest i think it's a bit of Welsh bias creeping in. All unions try to source the best players available to them, that's modern rugby (whether you agree or disagree with it). A bit 'unsporting'? Probably yes, but the precedent has already been set.
You might well be right... but with the amount of young Welsh boys moving to English colleges to complete their education only set to increase, this is probably gonna be a real sign of the times.
 

bushytop

First XV
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
4,099
Reaction score
1,652
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

London Welsh

100%
Painting England as some big evil is weird considering the WRU tried to do exactly this with Underhill and Morgan, and succeeded with Cuthbert.
Totally fair... but you know you guys are always gonna be the big evil right?
 

MikeTheNative

First XV
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
1,166
Reaction score
327
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

You might well be right... but with the amount of young Welsh boys moving to English colleges to complete their education only set to increase, this is probably gonna be a real sign of the times.
This is a problem that the WRU really needs to be paying attention too. The issue though is that these English colleges are a good choice for the players, not only a high level of coaching/playing it also offers the players an alternative in case pro rugby doesn't work out.
 

bushytop

First XV
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
4,099
Reaction score
1,652
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

London Welsh

This is a problem that the WRU really needs to be paying attention too. The issue though is that these English colleges are a good choice for the players, not only a high level of coaching/playing it also offers the players an alternative in case pro rugby doesn't work out.
Yup... and unless/until there are educational facilities this side of the Severn which can do the same, I genuinely don’t begrudge young Welsh boys choosing to do that. On the other hand, if that young Welsh boy then decides to play for England over Wales, I’ll begrudge all I want.
 

profitius

BANNED!!!
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
2,112
Reaction score
102
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Munster

Maybe he is qualified for Italy. Zammit is an Italian name according to Google.
 

bushytop

First XV
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
4,099
Reaction score
1,652
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

London Welsh

Maybe he is qualified for Italy. Zammit is an Italian name according to Google.
Can’t speak for his grand parents but Mam & Dad are both Welsh.

In all honesty, I do think he’ll choose to rep Wales... he’ll probably be picked in the 6N squad and get a cap sometime during the competition too.
 

Not Eddie Jones

Academy Player
Joined
Aug 23, 2019
Messages
446
Reaction score
202
Country Flag

England

Key line about the truth of this is right at the bottom of the WOL article:

It is reported England's approach to Rees-Zammit came before his recent try-scoring exploits, which will doubtless put him even more strongly on their radar.

So basically England doing due dilligence over every player who is English qualified (or could be soon) to see what their thoughts are about playing for England, before anyone even knew his name. Hell, they could have approached him two years ago when he started at Hartpury College. It's probably standard practice at Hartpury to check who their new intake want to play for internationally. Now that the bloke is actually scoring tries, WOL state that England will "doubtless" have him "more strongly on their radar". There's no actual evidence for that, but it's a fact! :D

Also, this is second-hand from The Rugby Paper, which isn't far off WOL's level sometimes. Have you ever read Nick Cain's column, or Jeff Probyn's? They're just like WOL journalists, they hate everything England do, especially when they're successful. Only those guys are both English! :rolleyes:

Also, also: where would he fit in the current England team? We have May, Watson, Cokanasiga, Daly and Nowell to play on the wings. We're loaded for years to come. I'm sure LRZ's advisors are smart enough to tell him he's got much more chance of a starting slot playing for Wales. Now if Wales had an English-qualified scrumhalf tearing up the Premiership, that's a situation where Eddie would actually go a-poaching. ;)
 

bertiec

Academy Player
Joined
Jun 15, 2012
Messages
136
Reaction score
13
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

I suppose the Welsh will stick to their own country men........ oh wait I forgot
  1. Ross Moriarty – England
  2. Tomas Francis – England
  3. George North – England
  4. Jonah Holmes – England
  5. Hallam Amos – England
  6. Hadleigh Parkes – New Zealand
  7. Gareth Anscombe – New Zealand
 

bushytop

First XV
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
4,099
Reaction score
1,652
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

London Welsh

I suppose the Welsh will stick to their own country men........ oh wait I forgot
  1. Ross Moriarty – England
  2. Tomas Francis – England
  3. George North – England
  4. Jonah Holmes – England
  5. Hallam Amos – England
  6. Hadleigh Parkes – New Zealand
  7. Gareth Anscombe – New Zealand
C’mon butt, all countries do it (bar Argentina & SA)... England as much as anyone (& a lot of those players you’ve mentioned may have been born in England but were raised in Wales and with Welsh parentage) I’ve gone to great pains to explain how I feel that this particular case is different (LRZ is more than able to actually get selected for his home nation but also his own nation is able to compete on the biggest stage yadda yadda yadda...) but I guess nobody actually reads everything just merely get triggered and try to have a pop.
 
Last edited:

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,000,782
Reaction score
6,164
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

just merely get triggered and try to have a pop.
This whole thread is because you got triggered by WOL and wanted to have a pop at the English ;)
 

bushytop

First XV
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
4,099
Reaction score
1,652
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

London Welsh

This whole thread is because you got triggered by WOL and wanted to have a pop at the English ;)
I don’t know, I think I just raised a topic due to an article being published and looked for other people’s input and views. I never had a pop at anyone and also am more than willing to admit when someone makes a great point that counters my particular view (I think your post regarding the WRU making overtures towards Underhill is very equitable... all other suggestions fall into the two categories I’ve continuously brought up... wouldn’t have been a regular, or even made selection for their actual country... or their actual country can’t compete on the biggest stage).

Maybe people read my posts in a manner I don’t actually intend... no aggression or belittling, just interested in people’s views... particularly views contrary to my own (if well argued and with a degree of respect that is).
 
Top