The Quick Tap Penalty

[Kempistry]

This is a comment about penalties, which I think are a mess.

First off the defense has to retreat ten, but if the player goes quick it is impossible to do so. We basically saw this in the ABs match where players were binned for not retreating, but if they hadn't tackled the player they'd go the entire field. And then a yellow card is handed out. This makes no sense.

Then we see Argentina tapping after a pause though the other team is unaware play has resumed after a bunch of medics are on the field.

Also half the time the referee won't let you go quick because he wants to say something. This makes no sense whatsoever. Also the referee fails to make a mark in a timely fashion half the time so the player goes quick and the ref calls him back for not being at "the mark." Also you are penalizing teams for making forward progress by dragging them backwards to the mark which delays an attempt to "go quick.

I think when the penalty is called the team should be able to go quick wherever the ball currently is if they have advanced it (or something like that) ALTHOUGH the ref should make them wait a specified number of seconds so that the defense actually has somewhat of a chance to retreat ten metres. The same few seconds should apply if time was called off. The ref should also never prevent a team from going quick because he wants to talk or because the mark is a few feet away.


End of rant.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

With the retreat 10 meters, you don't have to be 10 meters as long as you don't interfere. What more disciplined players do is they will continue running back and once they think they have reached a point that would have been 10 from where the tap happened, they will then try to tackle. No card for that. Also if you physically can't retreat 10 because of the try line then you merely have to be behind it to my knowledge.

To be honest, being unaware isn't an excuse. In international rugby you should never turn your back on your opposition and stop playing. Poite calling time on when he did was stupid but ultimately South Africa need to pay attention at all times.

Refs pulling back on a tap and go because they want to say something is wrong but ultimately they may have distracted the opposition when doing it so it's unfair. I think there should be a way for a ref to say immediately after whistling that a tap and go isn't allowed to prevent that. Also it doesn't take long at all to move 10m, if a team are not back 10 that is their own fault. Teams should learn that as soon as the whistle is blown against your team, you need to backpeddle 10m immediately. Most players just switch off when the whistle is blown. You can see this in the 2014 England-Wales game where the whistle blew and half the Welsh team turned their backs on Danny Care, who tapped it and scored a try.

 

[smartcooky]

First off the defense has to retreat ten, but if the player goes quick it is impossible to do so.

We basically saw this in the ABs match where players were binned for not retreating,..

Not true.

They werepenalised for taking part in the game before they retreated 10m from the mark, or to a point where they passed a team-mate who had been 10m from the mark where the tap kick was taken. The yellow card was for intentional offending, Law 10.2 (a) (see later in this post)

[TEXTAREA]LAW 21.7 WHAT THE OPPOSING TEAM MUST DO AT A PENALTY KICK

(a) Must run from the mark. The opposing team must immediately run towards their own goal line until they are at least 10 metres away from the mark for the penalty kick, or until they have reached their goal line if that is nearer the mark.

(b) Must keep running. Even if the penalty kick is taken and the kicker's team is playing the ball, opposing players must keep running until they have retired the necessary distance. They must not take part in the game until they have done so.

(c) Kick taken quickly. If the penalty kick is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retire, they will not be penalised for this. However, they must continue to retire as described in 21.7(b) above or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has run in front of them, before they take part in the game.[/TEXTAREA]

but if they hadn't tackled the player they'd go the entire field. And then a yellow card is handed out. This makes no sense.

Also not true. As soon as they were onside (as explained above) they would have been free to take part again.

However, when Aaron Smith was tackled by Kepu (who was then binned) there was a very good case for a penalty try to be awarded. When Smith took the tap kick, the offside line was the Wallaby goal-line. EVERY Wallaby player, within defending distance was offside...

As Smith takes the tap

As he is tackled

When Aaron Smith took the tap kick, the offside line was the Wallaby goal-line. EVERY Wallaby player, within defending distance was offside. They were not allowed to touch Smith until he reached the goal-line. The Law says they had to retire immediately (see Law 21 above) and not one of them even attempted to do that.

Barnes thought this was a cynical enough offence to bin Kepu, so he has to be binning him for intentional offending...

[LAWS]10.2 UNFAIR PLAY
(a) Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.
Sanction: Penalty kick

A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise
have been scored.[/LAWS]

...so I have to wonder why he didn't go upstairs and have the TMO check for a possible penalty try. If they left Smith alone as the Law requires, he most certainly would have scored.

 

[goodNumber10]

@smartcooky I have something in my head about the attacking team running 5 metres at a quick penalty, but can't remember exactly what that was or if it's just me going barmy.

 

[Tony Manx]

Not true.

They werepenalised for taking part in the game before they retreated 10m from the mark, or to a point where they passed a team-mate who had been 10m from the mark where the tap kick was taken. The yellow card was for intentional offending, Law 10.2 (a) (see later in this post)

[TEXTAREA]LAW 21.7 WHAT THE OPPOSING TEAM MUST DO AT A PENALTY KICK

(a) Must run from the mark. The opposing team must immediately run towards their own goal line until they are at least 10 metres away from the mark for the penalty kick, or until they have reached their goal line if that is nearer the mark.

(b) Must keep running. Even if the penalty kick is taken and the kicker’s team is playing the ball, opposing players must keep running until they have retired the necessary distance. They must not take part in the game until they have done so.

(c) Kick taken quickly. If the penalty kick is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retire, they will not be penalised for this. However, they must continue to retire as described in 21.7(b) above or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has run in front of them, before they take part in the game.[/TEXTAREA]




Also not true. As soon as they were onside (as explained above) they would have been free to take part again.

However, when Aaron Smith was tackled by Kepu (who was then binned) there was a very good case for a penalty try to be awarded. When Smith took the tap kick, the offside line was the Wallaby goal-line. EVERY Wallaby player, within defending distance was offside...

As Smith takes the tap

As he is tackled

When Aaron Smith took the tap kick, the offside line was the Wallaby goal-line. EVERY Wallaby player, within defending distance was offside. They were not allowed to touch Smith until he reached the goal-line. The Law says they had to retire immediately (see Law 21 above) and not one of them even attempted to do that.

Barnes thought this was a cynical enough offence to bin Kepu, so he has to be binning him for intentional offending...

[LAWS]10.2 UNFAIR PLAY
(a) Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.
Sanction: Penalty kick

A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise
have been scored.[/LAWS]

...so I have to wonder why he didn't go upstairs and have the TMO check for a possible penalty try. If they left Smith alone as the Law requires, he most certainly would have scored.

I would guess that Barnes was so caught up in thinking about giving the yellow card do early in the game that he simply did not think about the penalty try award?

A mistake no less and certainly no more!!

 

[Raggs]

The card in the ABs game for being offside with the tap penalty, he grabbed him to start (out of order, but let go), then Conrad seemed to hit the brakes and he just ran into him, so I thought the card was harsh, however, did one of the guys who was 10m back not bring him onside by that point? Can't remember who got carded (scrumhalf I think).

 

[smartcooky]

@smartcooky I have something in my head about the attacking team running 5 metres at a quick penalty, but can't remember exactly what that was or if it's just me going barmy.

You're not quite going barmy. Its always 10m when a penalty kick or a free kick is involved.

What you may be thinking of is an offside player in General Play being put onside by the actions of opponents

[TEXTAREA]LAW 11.3 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY OPPONENTS
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.

(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.

(b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.

(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.[/TEXTAREA]

 

[goodNumber10]

You're not quite going barmy. Its always 10m when a penalty kick or a free kick is involved.

What you may be thinking of is an offside player in General Play being put onside by the actions of opponents

[TEXTAREA]LAW 11.3 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY OPPONENTS
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.

(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.

(b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.

(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.[/TEXTAREA]

Is that also valid when taking/playing the Mark quickly?

 

[smartcooky]

Is that also valid when taking/playing the Mark quickly?

No, it only applies to Offside in General Play (Law 11)

Law 21.7 specifically says what an opponent must do at a Penalty Kick (21.8 at a Free Kick)

 

[Mumbles119]

@smartcooky. In regards to this part: "When Aaron Smith took the tap kick, the offside line was the Wallaby goal-line. EVERY Wallaby player, within defending distance was offside. They were not allowed to touch Smith until he reached the goal-line. The Law says they had to retire immediately (see Law 21 above) and not one of them even attempted to do that"

I understand and agree this is right, but as a question of clarification... can a defending player retreat the 10m (or try line if relevant) and then move forward again to intercept the attacking player taking the quick tap?

I wouldn't really expect to see this, unless the defending player was superhero quick, or the attacking player dithers too much in the quick tap approach.

 

[dullonien]

@smartcooky. In regards to this part: "When Aaron Smith took the tap kick, the offside line was the Wallaby goal-line. EVERY Wallaby player, within defending distance was offside. They were not allowed to touch Smith until he reached the goal-line. The Law says they had to retire immediately (see Law 21 above) and not one of them even attempted to do that"

I understand and agree this is right, but as a question of clarification... can a defending player retreat the 10m (or try line if relevant) and then move forward again to intercept the attacking player taking the quick tap?

I wouldn't really expect to see this, unless the defending player was superhero quick, or the attacking player dithers too much in the quick tap approach.

Yup, as long as the player has retreated 10m (or to the try line), they can then move forwards as they normally would.

It's a fair rule imo, and as long as the defending players react quickly enough, there should be time for them to get back and be in a position to tackle again.

As for the OP's questions:

This is a comment about penalties, which I think are a mess.

First off the defense has to retreat ten, but if the player goes quick it is impossible to do so. We basically saw this in the ABs match where players were binned for not retreating, but if they hadn't tackled the player they'd go the entire field. And then a yellow card is handed out. This makes no sense.

As above, they can continue to retreat and then tackle the player once they have retreated the required amount.

Then we see Argentina tapping after a pause though the other team is unaware play has resumed after a bunch of medics are on the field.

I personally think the law's need clarifying somewhat here. If a ref asks a captain to talk to his players, I think an acceptable amount of time should indeed be allowed to have that talk. I'm not talking long here, but I think it's unfair for the ref to restart the game what the captain's in the middle of doing what the ref ordered. I know the rules don't allow time for that talk, but imo they should.

Also half the time the referee won't let you go quick because he wants to say something. This makes no sense whatsoever. Also the referee fails to make a mark in a timely fashion half the time so the player goes quick and the ref calls him back for not being at "the mark." Also you are penalizing teams for making forward progress by dragging them backwards to the mark which delays an attempt to "go quick.

I think when the penalty is called the team should be able to go quick wherever the ball currently is if they have advanced it (or something like that) ALTHOUGH the ref should make them wait a specified number of seconds so that the defense actually has somewhat of a chance to retreat ten metres. The same few seconds should apply if time was called off. The ref should also never prevent a team from going quick because he wants to talk or because the mark is a few feet away.

I agree to some degree here. I'd like to see the law's tweaked to allow a quick tap to be taken within say 2m of the mark, so long as it's not in front of the mark. Some ref's are more stringent than others, and I find it infuriating that a ref calls a player back because he was a couple of steps away from the mark. I also agree re ref's preventing a quick tap because he wants to talk to the offending team. Just do it at the next stoppage!

 

[JDM]

Hello there,

A little background first. I've been watching rugby for a few years now, didn't play, no one I know really played (in the U.S.) so I apologize if this is a dumb question as I'm still learning the game.

With regard to the quick tap penalty, I've noticed two different things that seem to work against the team awarded the penalty from being able to take a quick tap. First, I see at times after a team is awarded the penalty, a member from the penalized team grabs the ball and holds on to it, with a member from the team that was awarded the penalty often trying to grab it from him and shoving him away. And secondly, I might be missing something but it seems like refs often take their time in marking the penalty spot or they don't seem to mark it at all, they simply casually walk up to the players after blowing the whistle.

So my questions are: In the 1st situation, is there a penalty for these guys that deliberately hold the ball? Or is it just not policed very well? In the 2nd situation, what's the expectation for the ref to mark the spot quickly so that a quick tap can actually be effective?

Thanks in advance.

 

[die_mole]

1. Yes, there is a penalty for it but it's only called when a team would realistically take it quick or it's something ridiculous like kicking the ball away a long distance.

2. The mark exists whether or not the ref makes a spot. The pk/fk is taken where the offense occurs (there are some exceptions.)

 

[JDM]

1. Yes, there is a penalty for it but it's only called when a team would realistically take it quick or it's something ridiculous like kicking the ball away a long distance.

2. The mark exists whether or not the ref makes a spot. The pk/fk is taken where the offense occurs (there are some exceptions.)

I timestamped it and I didn't see the ref make a mark and they played anyways like you said. But is there ever discrepancy between when the penalty occurred and where the player doing the quick tap takes the penalty? I guess what I'm asking is how exact to the spot does a player need to be.

 

[Which Tyler]

I timestamped it and I didn't see the ref make a mark and they played anyways like you said. But is there ever discrepancy between when the penalty occurred and where the player doing the quick tap takes the penalty? I guess what I'm asking is how exact to the spot does a player need to be.

It does happen, and the ref calls them back.
You need to be pretty exact, or directly behind the mark