The Residency Rule Thread

[MikeTheNative]

Rugby pro is a short career and you don't get paid that much when compared to a lot of other pro sports, especially ones with that much risk of injuries. You can't blame players for moving for better money/prospects etc. and can't blame the more affluent countries offering more money either.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Don't understand this post. So Stander was told he would need to switch position to hooker to have a shot in South Africa, as he didn't have the size of other guys, something he naturally didn't want to do, so he sought opportunity elsewhere where he would be played at his preferred position. Understandable surely, or have I my facts wrong?

He got his regular position at Munster? He was signed as an 8/ backrower, why wouldn't he? Also im not sure what South Africans we had coaching in 2012, my memory is foggy but I know Rob Penney and Simon Mannix and Anthony Foley for the pack. We may have had a South African on board but I don't remember him anyway. Regardless Stander's first season or two for Munster were not solid. He showed flashes but rarely started. He didn't walk into a jersey by any means. There were rumors for a while he'd be let go actually because he wasn't establishing himself as was expected.
On the last point..... So? Stander has put down roots in Ireland, has a mortgage on a house and is tied in here for some time. He's made his career here, had his kid here, but it's not mutually exclusive with loving the country he grew up in. No one here demands he purges all fondness for his home country.
I'm not really arguing the residency thing because I'm not going to change any opinions, nor do I care to, but I think this is a cynical enough view on Stander's move.

Many coaches tell players to switch positions. Beast was a no. 8 before his coached switched him to prop. Pierre Spies was a winger before he moved to No. 8. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

But Stander was the U/20 Springbok captain, and he also went on tour as an uncapped springbok and many people are of the opinion that it was on that tour where he was approached to go to Ireland. As he signed a couple of Months later with Munster.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

@Cruz_del_Sur just on CJ Stander. The man moved here to play rugby as he was told he was too small and would not make it in South Africa.
Since he has came here he has bought in to every bit of culture and laid his roots here. He did not come just to play for Ireland. Far from it. He struggled for many years to hold down his Munster spot. He's bought a house and ser up his family home here. But had he being picked for Springboks he'd have never moved to Ireland but that just meant lifes plan was not to be a Sprinbok. The only difference with NZ or a country like that is they can offer better opportunities at a younger age

I don’t get how you think that makes standers story better. Cj stander and bundee Aki (as well as some of the French South Africans) are really the only players I have issues playing for a country that they weren’t born in. I’ll buy that you have adopted your new country as your home if you move their for school or on rugby work.

It’s the guys who move to a country to only play rugby who bother me. Especially in Ireland’s case where they are very reluctant to give jobs to foreigners (seems they only sign them if they can turn them into Irish players).

I want one of either two rules put into place.

1. The nations you are eligible to play for freezes when you sign your first professional contract.

2. Time playing professional rugby doesn’t count towards residency.

You’d have to define “professional rugby” for both of them but I believe people could work it out.

 

[Groundhog]

Many coaches tell players to switch positions. Beast was a no. 8 before his coached switched him to prop. Pierre Spies was a winger before he moved to No. 8. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

But Stander was the U/20 Springbok captain, and he also went on tour as an uncapped springbok and many people are of the opinion that it was on that tour where he was approached to go to Ireland. As he signed a couple of Months later with Munster.

Yeah people move, but he was absolutely vindicated in his decision to back himself at 8. He has had an excellent career thusfar, captained his club from 8, got capped all at 8, the position he wanted. Especially as an under 20 captain I can see how he didn't like being told to switch position when he knew he was big enough and good enough where he was.

On your second point ok maybe that's how he signed but he had to get spotted and signed somehow, not sure what bearing it has. We also signed Rua Tipoki based off a Maori All Blacks game I'm pretty sure. It's good talent identification.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I reckon it should be clarified that the "project player" (a term that was very quickly abandoned too, I think Payne was the only one to actually be signed on those terms and play for Ireland) isn't someone scouted by Ireland to play for us in 3-5 years, it's simply a contract that was available to provinces to bring in an extra foreign player that wasn't tied to a nation. For every Stander or Aki there's a Mafi, Newland or Manning who didn't get a sniff of a national squad.

We get extra stick for coining the term but these guys aren't different to Nathan Hughes or Sevu Reece.

This thread also just shouldn't get specific, it will just devolve into finger pointing. Its the rules that need discussed, not the individuals they apply to.

 

[TRF_heineken]

This thread also just shouldn't get specific, it will just devolve into finger pointing. Its the rules that need discussed, not the individuals they apply to.

I'm happy to do that. But I guess many who have an opinion on this matter will use certain players as an example as illustration.

For me, as a Saffa, I blame our government mostly for the reason as to why guys are going overseas and play for other nations. The Transformation/Quota system is part of why these guys are leaving. But I have a personal gripe with guys who represented us at U/20 level, wear the Bok jersey and sing the national anthem with pride, only to go and represent another country.

If it's about money, go and play overseas, but make yourself available for South Africa.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm happy to do that. But I guess many who have an opinion on this matter will use certain players as an example as illustration.

For me, as a Saffa, I blame our government mostly for the reason as to why guys are going overseas and play for other nations. The Transformation/Quota system is part of why these guys are leaving. But I have a personal gripe with guys who represented us at U/20 level, wear the Bok jersey and sing the national anthem with pride, only to go and represent another country.

If it's about money, go and play overseas, but make yourself available for South Africa.

I do understand that but at the same time it's your own perspective. For many professional rugby players rugby is just a career and not a vocation, plenty of them know that their only chance to earn a good living is rugby and that's more important than patriotism.

I always try to compare it to any other career, if I was offered a better opportunity in a place that I'd be happy to live I'd take it in a heartbeat, some people wouldn't. I'm 24, I could go away for a decade, I can still come home to establish myself here if I wanted to and probably be far the better for it with a love for another country and culture too. The difference here is just a jersey in a career that is at best 25% as long as a normal one with fairly limited financial opportunities.

I don't know if you dislike Stander, Dell, Strauss etc... as people, but anyone who does needs some perspective.

 

[munstermuffin]

I don’t get how you think that makes standers story better. Cj stander and bundee Aki (as well as some of the French South Africans) are really the only players I have issues playing for a country that they weren’t born in. I’ll buy that you have adopted your new country as your home if you move their for school or on rugby work.

It’s the guys who move to a country to only play rugby who bother me. Especially in Ireland’s case where they are very reluctant to give jobs to foreigners (seems they only sign them if they can turn them into Irish players).

I want one of either two rules put into place.

1. The nations you are eligible to play for freezes when you sign your first professional contract.

2. Time playing professional rugby doesn’t count towards residency.

You’d have to define “professional rugby” for both of them but I believe people could work it out.

Well what differnce is it from a CJ Stander or Aki and a Joe Rokocoko or Jerry Collins (RIP) or Benson Stanley along many more.

Your rules are wrong as
1. Encourages poaching at a young age.
2. What is "professional rugby" in Ireland is it AIL, Provincial etc and again it does not address the poaching from a younger age.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think we've discussed the CJ Stander issue quite a lot in the past. But I cannot completely agree with what CJ is saying in Ireland about why he wasn't picked. He was a youngster at the Bulls, and wasn't completely settled in his position as first choice as we had at that time 2 3 other players in the Bulls squad who were all Springboks. He felt that it's not happening soon enough, so he went to Ireland.

But here's where it gets even more dodgy. He got his regular positioning spot while there were South Africans as part of the coaching team at Munster. Would that have been the case if no other South African was there to hold his hand?? We'll never know.

But CJ isn't being completely honest with the Irish public either. Yes he is now part of the community, and yes he's put roots down there, that happened because of his situation. But CJ still comes to SA, he still misses things and places about SA, he still has family here.

Actually he got his spot before South Africans arrived. Axel gave that to him long before and is the very reason CJ took his passing very close to heart. So I guess we will know as he has proven so.

Yes he does have family in SA and yes he misses things there. I have family in Calgary. I miss parts of my time there but doesn't mean I'm Canadian.

CJ broke no rule and came to Ireland to play for Munster. Not Ireland. He was never signed to play for Ireland. In fact the IRFU never even knew who he was.

 

[munstermuffin]

Many coaches tell players to switch positions. Beast was a no. 8 before his coached switched him to prop. Pierre Spies was a winger before he moved to No. 8. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

But Stander was the U/20 Springbok captain, and he also went on tour as an uncapped springbok and many people are of the opinion that it was on that tour where he was approached to go to Ireland. As he signed a couple of Months later with Munster.

100% false I am involved with Munster a long time and he was approached after being told he had no future as a backrow player in South Africa by Shaun Payne who met him and his father in the family farm. THat was the very first contact and was a call out of the blue instigated by Shaun and Axel who was aware of many young players in the world from his time with Munster underage.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm happy to do that. But I guess many who have an opinion on this matter will use certain players as an example as illustration.

For me, as a Saffa, I blame our government mostly for the reason as to why guys are going overseas and play for other nations. The Transformation/Quota system is part of why these guys are leaving. But I have a personal gripe with guys who represented us at U/20 level, wear the Bok jersey and sing the national anthem with pride, only to go and represent another country.

If it's about money, go and play overseas, but make yourself available for South Africa.

On this and this really ****** me off. CJ was available and was mentioned that the Boks may cap him. He never once said no and was not turning his back on them. Heyneke Meyer told him he probably would not make it as a professional never mind a Springbok.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Joe C moved to England when he was a couple of months old, I doubt he had a rugby career in mind.

 

[Groundhog]

It’s the guys who move to a country to only play rugby who bother me. Especially in Ireland’s case where they are very reluctant to give jobs to foreigners (seems they only sign them if they can turn them into Irish players).

Well you're fundamentally wrong on this point. Reluctant to give jobs to foreigners? Players are signed primarily to play for and according to the needs of the provinces. We've had tonnes of non Irish eligible players play here. Scott Fardy, Jaco Taute, Piatau, Pienaar, Alby Mathewson many many more. Did Munster sign Jed Holloway last week on a two month contract to play for Ireland? Doubtful. If World rugby change the eligibility rules we would continue to sign foreign players where needed as we literally always have.
Also a heads-up there's four Irish guys in the American squad. Brought up, developed and played their formative years of rugby here. Doesn't bother me in the slightest of course. Glad to see as many Irish get opportunities as possible. I'd feel differently if we lost a top talent of course but that's very unlikely.

 

[munstermuffin]

I am aware of CJ Standers story. I think the difference lies in the fact that you think it is reasonable for him to play for Ireland. I do not.
I find it particularly convenient that the people who "buy every bit of culture and lay roots" tend to do it either

a) if they cannot play for the country they were born in.
b) in countries richer than the ones they were born.

As the rules stand today, countries buy, sorry, can financially incentivize players to switch national teams. I think that is tragic. I know i am part of a minorty tho.



Name me a NZ born and NZ citizen player who could be/have been a starting XV All Black but decided to play for Tonga, Fiji or Samoa. Just one.
I repeat. The NZ born players that play for Tonga, Samoa and Fiji are players who didn't make it to the ABs. The opposite does not happen.
The number of players from NZ to pacific islanders is probably (way) higher, but the drivers that move talent one way or the other are very different. The evidence is overwhelming and out there for anyone with interest in the subject to see.

Lets make this evidence-based. Your ball.

But see CJ has an Irish passport and is an Irish citizen as is Jean Marie. And again the point was more New Zealand got many pacific islanders that have played for the All Blacks simply because they got them at an earlier age. And again the evidence is there as the schools report would show alot have come from Samoa, Tonga etc is high too. Yes they don't come exclusively for rugby but well don't feed me this BS of being on higher ground. Every country is at it and simply target from different ages.

Like I'll put a question out Kenyan Knox plays for Munster tonight in a preseason game. If he goes on to play for Ireland what is the view on it?

 

[munstermuffin]

Joe C moved to England when he was a couple of months old, I doubt he had a rugby career in mind.

My point on this is alot move without rugby on their mind but the overall scenario is the same in terms of no blood linkage. Yes some do too but if there is a rule in place and it is obeyed I don't see the issue.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Your rules are wrong as
1. Encourages poaching at a young age.
2. What is "professional rugby" in Ireland is it AIL, Provincial etc and again it does not address the poaching from a younger age.

if you include professional rugby as paying for someone to play rugby it would address poaching at an early age since scholarships could be considered professional under that standard

Rokococko and Collins both moved when they were children and Collins is a little unclear. If you can't the difference between Rokococko/ Collins and Aki/Stander you're deliberately obtuse. If Collins move to New Zealand was rugby motivated I'd be a little more skeptical. However he was recruited by a school not by a team whose contracts have to be approved by the national union.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Whether or not they would play for the ABs or not is irrelevant. They are NZ born and bred players, going and getting selected for the PI teams. Clearly the PI teams feel they are stronger with these NZ players. The PI teams are benefiting from the eligibility criteria. Talent has flowed to them, not away.

That is a very far stretched speculation, at best. And you dodge the point.
Maybe those NZ born and bred players wouldn't have a spot in PI teams if the best players from the PI weren't poached by richer countries.
Maybe.



@Umaga's Witness
I enjoyed your post. Don't necessarily agree with everything but i see your pov.

At the same time if I was a woman in Pakistan I’d probably not want to live there and wouldn’t want to represent their country. So if I was the greatest rugby player in the world I wouldn’t be allowed to play for any country, by your policy.

That is just not true. You could live abroad and play for your national team, specially in non-tier 1 teams.

Now I don’t know what the answer is, and understand our philosophy underlying this is quite different.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. My case is not as tight as i'd like it to be, but i have a few non-negotiables and, given those, this is the least worse proposal i could come up with. I'm open to hear others and change my mind.

And i'd like to mention another thing. For me the comparison between someone not being able to play for a national team and someone not being able to be part of a society is just wrong.
Let's take the case you mentioned about a Pakistani woman. Well, i am all in favour of her having asylum, residency, right to vote, assistance, the lot. I want to help her to integrate. Not sure how to explain my thoughts about this, so bear with me.
She is coming from a terrible situation (i guess that was the underlying assumption) and we are trying to help her out.
I want to conclude using this phrase (you will see why later): we are helping her transition from a terrible situation into a normal situation. Her baseline is, again, terrible.

Now let's take a PI who has the skillset to become an All Black. He's got a SR contract, happy with the money and odds are he'll have something along those lines for his entire carreer. Probably move to France at some point, etc. All Blacks or no All Blacks his financial situation, unless he screws up royally, is more than ok. So in his case, his baseline is not terrible, it's actaully pretty ******* amazing. He's young, healthy, popular, a star, does what he loves and earns good money. So what i am taking from him prevents him from going from very good to outstanding one. I dont really have that in my priority list.

Recapping:
helping people to go from a terrible situation to a normal situation ---> Very important
Helping people to go from a privileged position to an even more privileged position ----> nice to have, but not a priority.

If the system i proposed above would have as a consequence that the woman couldn't move from Pakistan to NZ, I would reconsider my position. However, if my system meant that some pros couldnt make it to the national team, i'm ok with that. The benefits outweigh that cost (comfortably) in my book.

I'm not worried about you agreeing with me but i am not sure i explained myself as eloquently as i should have. Let me know if it's not clear. Again, my solution is far from perfect.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Joe C moved to England when he was a couple of months old, I doubt he had a rugby career in mind.

You're kidding yourself pal, he's scum.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

But see CJ has an Irish passport and is an Irish citizen as is Jean Marie. And again the point was more New Zealand got many pacific islanders that have played for the All Blacks simply because they got them at an earlier age. And again the evidence is there as the schools report would show alot have come from Samoa, Tonga etc is high too. Yes they don't come exclusively for rugby but well don't feed me this BS of being on higher ground. Every country is at it and simply target from different ages.

Like I'll put a question out Kenyan Knox plays for Munster tonight in a preseason game. If he goes on to play for Ireland what is the view on it?

My view is very simple. No switching, no exceptions, even counting Junior level.

I wouldn't like it, but I could tolerate someone who was born and raised in country A, poached by country B just to play rugby. I dont like it but from a practical point of view it is very, very difficult to prevent that. I undersrtand that.
However, i think a lot of people would agree with the idea that once a player puts on a national team's jersey, that's it, there should be no going back.

Lets take the argument to the extreme to test it's logic. What if CJ Stander couldnt make it to Ireland's team either and moved to Italy? And after that he took his chances with Georgia. Then Romania.
He can basically go country shopping.
I dont like where that leads.

One choice, pick carefully.

I have mixed feelings about the age thing. I think talent scouts can tell quite easily if a 18 year old is good/maybe/not good enough.

 

[munstermuffin]

My view is very simple. No switching, no exceptions, even counting Junior level.

I wouldn't like it, but I could tolerate someone who was born and raised in country A, poached by country B just to play rugby. I dont like it but from a practical point of view it is very, very difficult to prevent that. I undersrtand that.
However, i think a lot of people would agree with the idea that once a player puts on a national team's jersey, that's it, there should be no going back.

Lets take the argument to the extreme to test it's logic. What if CJ Stander couldnt make it to Ireland's team either and moved to Italy? And after that he took his chances with Georgia. Then Romania.
He can basically go country shopping.
I dont like where that leads.

One choice, pick carefully.

I have mixed feelings about the age thing. I think talent scouts can tell quite easily if a 18 year old is good/maybe/not good enough.

Yes but again it's said as if Ireland poached CJ. Munster did and well it had nothing to do with Ireland. It was at a time when Munster had a few not many and Leinster had about 3 backrow units ahead. Kevin McLaughlin, Domnic Ryan and a few more to name a few.