The Residency Rule Thread

Discussion in 'General Rugby Union' started by Leinster Fan, Sep 6, 2019.

  1. mdaclarke

    mdaclarke Academy Player

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    I think 5 years is about right. But I would also add a requirement that they have a passport for the Country.

    Must be very demoralising for native born players to know that you are fighting SH and PI players for your spot.

    Also I imagine that most players would want to play for their home country, therefore there is a risk you could end up with players who aren't good enough for their native country playing for another country.

    In the long run you won't beat New Zealand or South Africa by becoming New Zealand B or South Africa B
     
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  3. saulan

    saulan Bench Player

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    Just saw a post on another site (thanks Baylion) about South African schoolboys (current under 18) who are heading to Europe next year.

     
  4. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    Moved to the appropriate thread.

    FYI McGrath was born over there while his parents were there on a working visa, came back as a baby.

    I'm interested in your view on dual citizenship. Hypothetically if Samoa allowed for Dual Citizenship (they don't, UK does) would you still be against him playing for England and saying that about Samoa?

    I'm interested because in my opinion nationality is a fairly personal thing within certain restrictions. I've met 1st and 2nd generation Irish who consider themselves Irish, hold Irish or dual citizenship, embraced the culture, learned the history, sometimes even the language and obviously support our national teams - they're Irish to me and I'd be proud to see anyone like that (and there are numerous examples) represent Ireland. Likewise Bundee Aki and CJ Stander are both entitled to Irish citizenship, no idea if either of them have it but if they did I'd again be proud for them to represent my country.* Your point earlier on this thread of Ireland not being either players' first choice doesn't really hold weight in my opinion, life happens, things change, forcing anything on someone for what their goals and life situation were before they'd had their first **** or even what they were five years ago isn't realistic in any walk of life so why force it on rugby?

    Your view is obviously different and not shaped by multiple forced periods of mass emigration in your country or a decades long conflict over nationality but why force it on other nations where nationality has a different and more malleable meaning?

    *Obviously they weren't for their first two years but even then I find it hard to begrudge individuals or employers who are engaged in a mutually beneficial employment contract. I'll always come down on the side of the player in this debate and consider it world rugby's job to fix any perceived shortcomings and create financial fair play. In many ways they're living the dream but conversely most of them have to find a profession that's totally new to them at some point in their thirties and will likely need multiple knee and/or hip replacements and have anything from CTE to restricted mobility beyond their forties so any money they can make they absolutely should.

    PS - no idea what your opinion on the parent/grandparent rule is, I've assumed it's fairly strict for the purpose of the post.

    Edit: Had missed your wider point on the T1 v T2 gap, that definitely falls on world rugby to fix somehow, not an easy task.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  5. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur First XV

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    Took me a while to write, hope it answers most of your points.

    I dont mind that at all. I've been on record here stating i have no problem with the likes of Jordi Murphy representing Ireland. It'd be silly to state otherwise.
    Cancelliere was born abroad too and i have no problem with him playing for the Pumas (was born while parents were temporarily stationed in the US)

    Two parts to this answer. One is quite simple the other not so much. I'll start with the difficult part, which relates to what the competition is supposed to be about.

    First, I dont have a specific and practical answer, but let me try stating what i am trying to achieve, what am i willing to give up for practical reasons, and what are non-negotiables, so at least you'll get an idea of where i am coming from. I know what i want, but i am not 100% sure how to get it.

    For me, the beauty of nations vs nation comps is that money is not involved, or at least that was originally the intent. God, luck, whatever you want to call it, decided you were in team A, and that's that. So in my ideal world, there would be a mechanism where a player would not choose. Could be nationality, citizenship, etc, but ideally (not practically) i would like no choice.
    But i understand that is impossible from a practical pov, so i would allow choices, but minimize them in number and force them to be made as soon as possible.
    Regarding the specific example about Manu Tuilagi, and this is the relevant part, i don't have a problem with him playing for England.
    I do have a problem with him saying "England is very special to me, of course, but my heart and home is still Samoa." and playing for England. The difference, in my book, is huge.

    The question then is actually quite simple. Do you want players to play for countries

    a) where their hearts are at and where they feel their home is? (Manu's words, not mine).
    b) where the money transfer to their bank accounts comes from? (exaggerating for dramatic effect, but the gist is that)

    I feel kinda bad as it probably comes across as if i have some sort of personal issue with England or Manu Tuilagi and both couldn't be further from the truth.
    I just look at the facts and conclude that what happened in his case goes against what i understand the competition should be about.

    In Manu's case, my proposed solution would be, pick one team as early as possible, and that's that. No turning back. Ideally, create an environment where his choice is encouraged not by money, but i don't know how to practically implement this, so i settle for the first part. Chose, chose early, chose once, no going back, no exceptions.

    In my ideal world, Manu Tuilagi would be playing for Samoa and CJ Stander would be watching the world cup from the stands or home.

    Another thing that is ridiculous with the current system is the idea of people not making it in one country then try out for another team. That is just absurd. Mental stuff. That needs to stop. Pick once (again, not in my ideal world but under certain conditions, fine, I'd tolerate it), chose carefully, if you don't get picked in that country, you are done. No exceptions and this includes Junior national teams, sevens, the lot. I'd even go as far as including other sports here too.

    The second part of the answer is practical: if all the countries follow this path then this will inevitably become a rich vs poor thing which, imo is NOT what this is supposed to be about. It will widen the gap between Tier 1 and Tier 2. I would like for the complete opposite to happen. The idea, i thought, was to show the world that rugby was not just an exclusive-invite-only old boys club. I believe that the way we are heading as things stands encourages exactly that.

    You want a sport to grow? Any sport? Give the underdog a fighting chance.
    And yes, i know Japan could be seen as a counterexample but a) i don't think Japan is a success story, at least not yet and b) their model basically (buying people) is difficult if not impossible to export.

    Because if you can cherry pick nationalities to get into a national team people will mostly pick the one that pays the most. I think that is fundamentally wrong.

    Nationality (for sports) in my view, implies, for the lack of a better word, allegiance. You cant have allegiance to two countries that could face each other. You need to pick. I expect you to disagree with this, but that is how i see it.
     
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  6. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    I don't disagree massively but I'm definitely coming from a totally different perspective. You're looking at the sport as a whole, I'm looking at it from an individual player's perspective. Taking Stander as a case study: he became unhappy in SA he took a gamble on Ireland presumably over better pay packages in France, in the end he'll likely make more money because more effort was put into his development and his employers put a higher value on his physical well-being more than any French employer would. If he was locked to SA because of a decision he made as a 19 year old he could be sitting watching this tournament at home worrying how he's going to feed his family during it. (Exaggerated for effect, more appropriate for your average Pacific islander)

    Equally I'll say that this system has its flaws, it allowed the FFR more or less buy Vakatawa who would have played for his home country, and importing academy players, which happened recently in Ireland, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    But locking kids to countries isn't the answer. A globalised club season with a reduced number of games and banning international match fees goes a long way to reaching your goal and doesn't disadvantage players for being born in a poorer country. You'll still get residency players but there'll be fewer of them and they won't have been bought.
     
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  7. FrenchFan

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    None of these players will be eligible to play for France unless they get a French passport (ultimately a personal decision).
    The French union does not recognise the residency rule since 2016.
    https://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/no-more-foreigners-in-france-team-says-laporte.38542
    The residency rule is a load of ******. Ignore it or scrap it.
     
  8. saulan

    saulan Bench Player

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    Apparently the loophole here isn't about the national team. From what another poster stated following that initial post, players are considered French for the club team if they attended a French rugby academy, so it's a way to get around the international player quotas for the French clubs.
     
  9. FrenchFan

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    No they aren’t. If they have been thru French club academies they are JIFF qualified, they’re not French. They still need a French passport to be selected for the national team. They have to apply for citizenship (which is not granted de facto because you attended a rugby academy!).
    The one and only criteria is citizenship. The player must have French nationality. There is no loophole to that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  10. rugga658

    rugga658 Academy Player

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    Indeed

    JIFF is the easy bit Getting the passport via Citizenship is the real challenge
    Especially when I hear the 1st language Spoken at Montpelier Rugby is Afrikaans :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    The French Citizenship Process is Loooong

    https://www.france24.com/en/2016062...-british-brexit-france-naturalisation-process

    I want to ask you about Galthie & Ledesma
    What's the story behind their fall out??
    Seems that there's real animosity btw the pair

    https://www.midi-olympique.fr/2019/09/15/galthie-ledesma-irreconciliables,8415540.php
     
  11. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Now I don't want to keep on banging the drum on Stander, but what you're saying isn't completely true though. Stander was at U/20 the Junior Springboks Captain, and very much ambitious to play for the Bokke.

    Then he played senior rugby a couple of years, and even earned a call-up to the senior Springbok squad and went on the EOYT. He didn't get a cap as he was still a youngster but very much part of the group with the plan to cap him at a certain point as we always take a few uncapped guys on the EOYT, and it happens very often that these guys doesn't get capped (on that tour).

    Now, we can speculate all we want, but there was all the signs and intentions that CJ would've eventually be called up for the boks, depending on his fitness and form. But he made the choice to leave SA, (he still could've been capped for SA as the time he left we didn't have the stupid 30-cap rule). Then he decided to make himself unavailable and make himself eligible for Ireland, when he was older, and better.

    I guess we will never reach an agreement on Stander's case, and this is why there is such a divided opinion on this topic. I personally see him as a mercenary. You don't have to agree with me on it though.
     
  12. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur First XV

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    Oh come on. There is a difference between using a euphemism or an exaggeration and pushing it so far and beyond that it becomes just not true. He wasn't just unhappy, he was just not good enough to make the team. He didnt take a gamble on Ireland, that's the point. Ireland was the sure thing, He took a gamble in RSA and that gamble didn't pay off.

    I want to address this with a straight answer because i believe this is part of the core of the issue. Yes, if it comes to that, i'd rather have him worrying how he's gonna feed his family than have him play for Ireland. Ten times out of ten.
    National teams should not be the place where people go to sort out their financial problems.

    I understand your point but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and that's alright, course!
     
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  13. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    I'm applauding your remarks here.

    only 31 guys from every nation gets to go to the WC, so that leaves quite a lot of guys at home not getting a big payday from being at the World Cup. Some are even regular starters for the national team on other occasions.

    But a guy getting into a national team based on the residency rule, is in effect taking away the opportunity of a local player, born and bred who won't now be able to reap the rewards...
     
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  14. ncurd

    ncurd International

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    How many players are actual genuine issues like Stander?

    By that I mean I think we call accept if they played age grade rugby and were taught the game within the country they live in. I think that's a fair definition most can get behind (I'm not a fan of parent/grandparent rules, even birth can be nonsence as you sometimes talk about players who were born in country they can't remember).

    @TRF_heineken list/article was useful but someone like Underhill is clearly wrong on that list as he technically qualifies as 'Parent' but he's lived most of his life so you can't really tag him as a mercenary.


    I just wonder if its genuinely problematic or we are always talking about a couple of corner cases.
     
  15. FrenchFan

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  16. FrenchFan

    FrenchFan First XV

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    Jiff is a status in our rugby. It's not a passport. Doesn't make anyone French.

    Don't know about that. They have frenchified their staff with the appointment of Xavier Garbajosa as head coach. Cotter has been moved to DOR. They have more French players. Their younger French players are starting to catch the eye guys like Yvan Reilhac, Arthur Vincent (captain of the U20 World Champs)

    They had 10 French starters in their last game at Agen. 17 French in their 23.
    https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-...ntpellier-herault-rugby_mtc1130030/live.shtml

    Galthié is a prick. Too much ego. His managing record at SF, Montpellier and Toulon is the same : excellent technician but terrible manager of men.
     
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  17. rugga658

    rugga658 Academy Player

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    [QUOTE
    Stander was at U/20 the Junior Springboks Captain, and very much ambitious to play for the Bokke.


    I guess we will never reach an agreement on Stander's case, and this is why there is such a divided opinion on this topic. I personally see him as a mercenary. You don't have to agree with me on it though
    .[/QUOTE]

    Needed to be said

    Sick of revisionist History regarding Stander
    Guy played & captained U20 Boks

    However he never developed & was not making the Boks Squad

    So he goes to Ireland & plays for Munster - Perfectly Fine
    New country New experience earning good money
    That's where the journey Ends

    The moment CJ Stander plays International Rugby for any other nation than South Africa
    He becomes a Mercenary & no amount of hand wringing & Whataboutery from Irish fans & media
    will change this fact

    This also applies to other Mercenaries in the 2019 RWC: Braam Steyn, Vakatawa, Aki, Kleyn, Heinz, WP Nel, Dell etc
     
  18. The Alpha Bro

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    Nothing here addresses what I said. He's on record saying he wasn't happy in his club and with his coaches in SA and was considering returning to the family farm prior to opportunities in Europe presenting themselves. It was nothing to do with wanting to play international rugby.

    I said in that post that I don't really care what a 19/20 year old's ambition is. Stander wasn't happy with the treatment he was receiving - and that's entirely subjective to him - so he left for better conditions elsewhere. That's a mature career decision to be commended, and it would be in any other walk of life.

    Anyone saying he went to Ireland with the intention of playing for Ireland is fabricating something or has inside information, he's never said it. Whatever can be said about his decision to play for Ireland three and a half years later does not apply to his decision to leave.

    You don't know the facts of Stander's case. He wasn't a starter for Munster until his third season there, he wasn't even picked for the European squad in his first season and played in the 'A' team. He got a second contract in Ireland because he had a very strong third season, it would have been up in the air otherwise, had he found form 6 months later God knows where he'd be.

    He's made it abundantly clear that he left South Africa because he wasn't happy with his club and coaches, it was a career decision. Read Heineken's post if you doubt he'd have had a career in SA.

    As for the second part I'm going to have to disagree, I think it's doublethink when your desire is to level the playing field between rich and poor. But as you say we can disagree without issue.

    Stander's an issue because there are so many false narratives from both sides flying about the place. He wasn't brought to Ireland to play for Ireland and he didn't come here with that intention just because Heyneke Meyer thought he was a midget. He was recruited by Munster, the ridiculous three year residency is why he's playing for us, it's gone now. Stander is a moot point.


    The only way to make this issue go away, and even then only partially, is to remove the situation where you have an advantage playing for one country over another. This means player welfare laws be totally reformed, match fees for internationals banned and the banning of policies requiring a player to reside in a country to play for them. If you give players no incentive but pride to play international rugby you're going to weed out any "mercenaries" (stupid term when everyone is getting paid) who'll be happy with their clubs.

    What I'm genuinely astonished by is that people want to restrict someone's opportunity to earn a living for a sport...
     
  19. ncurd

    ncurd International

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    Look I'm not in the Stander must not play for Ireland camp or OMG they stole a player from SA thats just noise.

    But surely you must accept his reasoning to play for Ireland tenuous as best? I should point out I have equal issues with the likes of Heinz or Shields on the England side.

    When I say problem players I'm talking about players who zero or tenueous ties to said country uprooting sticks in adulthood and then deciding they qualify for international rugby.

    My issue with Stander has sod all to with playing in Ireland, its playing for Ireland he really should be SA and SA only and if they don't him well its no different to England saying they don't want Steffon Armitage.
     
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  20. The Alpha Bro

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    Under the the three year rule yeah, under the current rule he's eligible to Irish citizenship upon qualification so not really now.

    My biggest issue with all this is attacking individuals trying to earn a living.
     
  21. ncurd

    ncurd International

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    I'm always really dubious about citizenship laws being a qualifier, Ireland has pretty lax (relatively laws) other countries stronger.

    South Africa for instance has stronger rules than Ireland on naturalisation.

    Also decendency as I've noted before If my grandmother was Irish instead of SA I'd qualify for Irish citenzenship but as she's not I don't qualify for SA citizenship as she's not my parent.
     
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