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The South Africans are coming

The Alpha Bro

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To be fair Cruz I think the issue most have is travel (no idea how this became an "our foreign players are better than yours and less exploitative" dick swinging contest) which I think is fair when the financial aspect of it doesn't matter that much. The relatively underfunded pro 14 clubs and the money leaking prem clubs should want the financial boost though. The South Africans couldn't have chosen a better time for this.

As for the quality of the competition, it would undoubtedly go up, the Cheetahs would have qualified if eligible so no doubt for stronger teams will make their mark. Although I think they'll be surprised by some of the beatings Ster, Toulouse, Exeter and the like could hand them.
 

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??? Well they both have done. France have both Le Roux and Willemse right now and have the likes of Spedding and Kockott in the past. England have had Mike Catt, Matt Stephens, Mouritz Botha and a bunch of other guys play for them in the distant past.

Fact is both would pick any guy who is good enough and who qualifies.
Pretty much all tier one nations have at some point, it was more tongue in cheek given that my post was in reply to English league and French leagues being guilty vs the pro 14 which I don’t see as true at all.

With that said I am not convinced you can call Catt and Steven’s solely SA they had atleast one English parent.
 

living sacrifice

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Just to be clear and call a spade a spade, are you implying that the bulls, wp or the sharks can't compete with powerhouses such as bath, harlequins or saints?

As long as the teams joining are better than the league's worst team the leagues level goes, necessarily, up. It's not rocket science.



"anyone wants"...

Quite the ego there claiming to be the voice of the people, especially after quite a few posters here have implied they would like to see this happen.
Must be a language barrier because that’s not what I meant.
Not sure why you always take such an argumentative tone either. Chill out a little.
 

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I can’t stand South African rugby fans. Love nothing more than seeing their teams get hammered.
 

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Unless the franchises relocate to the NH then there'll be disruption just from the travel factor
Okay that's fair, to some extent. A flight from Johannesburg to London is about 14hours. Although most of our flights to Europe takes off around 6pm local time, and then flies overnight to Europe. Which would mean the team could even play on a Saturday, and fly that same night back and be in London Sunday morning. Although, I don't think it will happen and teams would rather fly back on the Sunday or later.

But the thing to consider is that while we do have the travel factor, is with the amount of pacific islanders, saffas, new zealanders, australians and argentinians, all these players are used to a way tougher travel regime while playing Super Rugby, that the one-off tour to SA should be a very little disruptive issue.

Another thing to consider is that should the SA teams participate, a lot more money will be involved with sponsors, and broadcasting deals. It would make no sense for the Clubs in Europe to veto such proposals, as they will benefit from it, and the benefit will be more than the losses of travelling to SA.
 

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But the thing to consider is that while we do have the travel factor, is with the amount of pacific islanders, saffas, new zealanders, australians and argentinians, all these players are used to a way tougher travel regime while playing Super Rugby, that the one-off tour to SA should be a very little disruptive issue.
True, but that's always been the case - all of that would be new for French/English clubs, who already have much higher work loads than any other league in the sport
I prefer the Premiership to the Champions Cup, so don't want anything that would negatively impact that.

As you say, though - if there's more money involved via TV deals etc. then the blazers will find a way to make sure it happens.
 

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But the thing to consider is that while we do have the travel factor, is with the amount of pacific islanders, saffas, new zealanders, australians and argentinians, all these players are used to a way tougher travel regime while playing Super Rugby, that the one-off tour to SA should be a very little disruptive issue.
Yes, from a SA perspective, travelling to Europe rather than NZ is much of a muchness.
From a European perspective (after all, this is about whether the English and French would welcome the Saffers), there's a huge difference between 14 hours each way, versus 2 hours each way.

As an English fan, I can follow my team playing in Rome, and not need a hotel room.
For player welfare, they spend 2 hours on a plane, and spend 2 nights in a hotel (often just 1 night when playing in France).


Ultimately though, I'm opposed to expansion of the European Cup, and I'm opposed to expansion of the Premiership.
I'm a proponent of player welfare, of condensing the European Cup and condensing the Premiership.
 
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ncurd

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Yes, from a SA perspective, travelling to Europe rather than NZ is much of a muchness.
From a European perspective (after all, this is about whether the English and French would welcome the Saffers), there's a huge difference between 14 hours each way, versus 2 hours each way.


Ultimately though, I'm opposed to expansion of the European Cup, and I'm opposed to expansion of the Premiership.
I'm a proponent of player welfare, or condensing the European Cup and condensing the Premiership.
Its also longer than 14 hours there's travel to the airport (and they might have to get a team bus which adds to milling about) then there's time at airport (you have go to a place that offer non-stop to South Africa) for a outside Europe flight so add another 1-2 hours there. Your probably look at 17-18 hours of travel, So your going to the hotel sleeping and getting u the next game for a highly competitive match followed by travelling the next with similar timescales. Considering the majority of players in French/English leagues haven't ever done anything like that I don't think they'd be keen.

In contrast traveling to France/Italy one day, playing and leaving the next is not a huge impact as travel time is significantly shorter.
 

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Its also longer than 14 hours there's travel to the airport (and they might have to get a team bus which adds to milling about) then there's time at airport (you have go to a place that offer non-stop to South Africa) for a outside Europe flight so add another 1-2 hours there. Your probably look at 17-18 hours of travel, So your going to the hotel sleeping and getting u the next game for a highly competitive match followed by travelling the next with similar timescales. Considering the majority of players in French/English leagues haven't ever done anything like that I don't think they'd be keen.

In contrast traveling to France/Italy one day, playing and leaving the next is not a huge impact as travel time is significantly shorter.
True, And I get that.

Plus, direct flights from Paris, London, Rome and other major european airports mostly only fly to Johannesburg or Cape Town, So travelling to Durban might be an additional flight of about an hour.

I understand that the burden will be on the top French and English teams and the issue of burnout and player welfare. The issue is though, how our inclusion would mitigate this factor? more time to travel to and from SA inbetween games? like playing on Friday or Thursday nights, and then travel back and then only play on a Sunday or Monday? Changing of the amount of matches domestically to accomodate for travel?

There are many way to go about in mitigating the travel factor, I guess the main thing would be how flexible and accomodating the unions will be to listen to proposals and how to implement them.

If anything else, the additional money, could lead to bigger squads, with lifting the amount of foreign players allowed to play in a team, that way you can have a group playing in SA, while the rest stays in France/England and prepare for the next game at home.
 

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If anything else, the additional money, could lead to bigger squads
Is there additional money for English and French teams though? If there was tons of cash available in the SA game why do all the SAFFERS come to play in our game?

The situation read far more SA needs our money and potential revenue rather than the other way around. Outside of France nobody is exactly awash with it and the EPL has spending limits to make sure things stay competetive and sugar daddy can't just buy a league (hence why Saracaens got in a lot of trouble).
 

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Is there additional money for English and French teams though?
Yes, the tournament is designed to make the French and English clubs get the majority of the profits. They aren't going to give up much stake to the South Africans and they'll probably try the pro 14 nations to take a bigger cut than they do again.
 

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Is there additional money for English and French teams though? If there was tons of cash available in the SA game why do all the SAFFERS come to play in our game?

The situation read far more SA needs our money and potential revenue rather than the other way around. Outside of France nobody is exactly awash with it and the EPL has spending limits to make sure things stay competetive and sugar daddy can't just buy a league (hence why Saracaens got in a lot of trouble).
I don't know how the clubs will benefit from the broadcasting deal, and how the FRU and PRU will use it. I know SARU has an agreement with the franchise teams in that they get a portion from the broadcasting deal.

With Supersport's agreement with SARU, the entire continent of Africa, will get to see these games and tournaments. The amount of viewership will increase by the millions...
 

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The unions don't have anything to do with the club game in England/France - it's the PRL and LNR.
That's probably a good thing for any expansion, though, as they're more money hungry/care less about player burnout than Unions do (not that the unions are bastions of fairness or anything, though)
 

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Another thing to consider is that should the SA teams participate, a lot more money will be involved with sponsors, and broadcasting deals. It would make no sense for the Clubs in Europe to veto such proposals, as they will benefit from it, and the benefit will be more than the losses of travelling to SA.
How much money is a lot and how does it compare to the what the existing markets bring in? I don't think that anyone's disputing the fact that the addition of South African teams would lead to increased revenues, but those revenues will need to be split one more way. That being the case, there needs to be enough left over after the SA teams have taken their cut to sweeten the English and French teams' deal sufficiently to make them put up with the downsides of including South African teams.
 

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How much money is a lot and how does it compare to the what the existing markets bring in? I don't think that anyone's disputing the fact that the addition of South African teams would lead to increased revenues, but those revenues will need to be split one more way. That being the case, there needs to be enough left over after the SA teams have taken their cut to sweeten the English and French teams' deal sufficiently to make them put up with the downsides of including South African teams.

I honestly have no idea how much the money will be. But my thinking is it will be quite significant. The amount of viewers could increase by 10 million alone. And yes, it has to be split, but it's still more than what they are currently getting. My guess would be the amount of money that will come in, will be so significant, that it was too good of a deal to pass on.
 

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If this does happen, I can't lie, I am a little excited.
Of course we want to see the likes of Willemse, Kolisi & Kitshoff play more often.

But surely it's going to take a couple of years for the SA teams to hit the heights.... in no way am I saying they aren't good enough but every year they get decimated by Japanese teams, French teams and Sale ;).
I assume some of the guys in the Stormers, Sharks, Lions etc team won't have played against teams like Exeter, Racing, Leinster etc who have internationals everywhere and i imagine it will be a step up.

Just interesting to see if it happens what the learning curve could be or whether they would hit the ground running. TBH i still want the top 3 teams to not be entered and go into a SUPER TOURNAMENT purely because i want Crusaders/Hurricanes vs someone like Leinster or Exeter :eek:
 
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