Thoughts on how the 'tip tackle' is ref'd

[drkfp93]

Ok so lately i was watching aviva premiership highlights. In a match Saracens vs Liecester a player (Michael Tagicakibau) was yellow carded for a tip tackle. The highlights only shown one replay and thus far i havent found the clip but to memory it was far from dangerous and at worst the tackled player landed on his back, not even his upper back at that. Other recent cases was Tom Court red card, Ulster vs Leinster, where on reply the tackle was fine until Devin Toner adjusted his position in the air and flung himself towards the ground thus making it look worse than it really was.
I see highlights, videos on youtube from 5-10 years ago where dump tackles still existed and were seen as fantastic tackles however now if a players feet leave the ground in any way then its an immediate penalty/yellow. I understand player safety is a big deal however there are no less injuries occuring now than there were 10 years ago specifically due to tip/dump tackles.

So what do you guys think? Do refs need to back off and only step in when something is obviously dangerous? And what do you think about the responabilities of the tackled player to do all they can to protect themselves instead of flailing about to milk a penalty?

 

[smartcooky]

IMO, the iRB is slowly moving towards discouraging the lifting of players off the ground at all, in the same way that rucking the ball back with the feet has become virtually outlawed. While it is still technically legal to use feet, players have become so wary of making boots on bodies contact that they hardly ever use their feet to ruck the ball back at a ruck any more

I have no problem with it if its the way they are going, because while "lifting" dump tackles might look spectacular, they have a very high risk factor, and don't serve any useful purpose that cannot be accomplished with an ordinary "driving" dump tackle, where a tackler tackles and drives the ball carrier off his feet. One of the best examples you will ever see of a driving dump tackle is this one... Jonny Wilkinson on Emile Ntamack



I want to see more of that, and less of this (cannot embed a second video, sorry)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbB6Nnjk4TM

 

[BRSTLDRGN]

IMO, the iRB is slowly moving towards discouraging the lifting of players off the ground at all, in the same way that rucking the ball back with the feet has become virtually outlawed. While it is still technically legal to use feet, players have become so wary of making boots on bodies contact that they hardly ever use their feet to ruck the ball back at a ruck any more

I have no problem with it if its the way they are going, because while "lifting" dump tackles might look spectacular, they have a very high risk factor, and don't serve any useful purpose that cannot be accomplished with an ordinary "driving" dump tackle, where a tackler tackles and drives the ball carrier off his feet. One of the best examples you will ever see of a driving dump tackle is this one... Jonny Wilkinson on Emile Ntamack



I want to see more of that, and less of this (cannot embed a second video, sorry)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbB6Nnjk4TM

Thumping hit, cant help thinking that tackle now would likley draw a yellow car or at least a TMO referral. I dont want rugby to lose that sort of tackle (btw what decision did the ref make following that?)

 

[ratsapprentice]

Cooky: what significance does the "beyond the horizontal" line actually have in the laws? And is it defined in any more detail than that.

To me it's a good guideline on what to check for in a potentially dangerous tackle...
My issue is that it should be based on the position of the head in relation to the hips - not between the head and feet/legs.
The feet/legs do not have a bearing on the position of the head and neck whereas the hips do.

In my opinion the referees are interpreting the line incorrectly.

 

[goodNumber10]

I agree with Rats here.

 

[drkfp93]

http://m.youtube.com/results?q=digby ioane tip tackle&sm=3
http://m.youtube.com/results?q=jonny wilkinson tackle justin bishop&sm=3

this tackle by JW is considered fantastic and tbh i think its a solid tackle, compared to the other link with digby ioane making a tackle they are the same. I just dont see why it has become dangerous. Nothing has changed, its the same tackle, it wasnt dangerous 10 years ago so why is it now?

 

[smartcooky]

Cooky: what significance does the "beyond the horizontal" line actually have in the laws? And is it defined in any more detail than that.

To me it's a good guideline on what to check for in a potentially dangerous tackle...

The significance is the static lift. When a player lifts an opponent by grasping them below the hips, they are doing so below the opponent's centre of mass. If they then lift the opponent up, the body of the lifted player becomes top-heavy. The natural tendency is for that body to rotate around the pivot point; gravity takes the player's head and shoulders toward the ground, while the rest of the player's body, held by the tackler, cannot also fall

A few years ago, just after the Sam Warburton red card at RWC2011, I wrote an article for rugbyrefs.com, called "The Dynamics of a Tip Tackle". If you haven't seen it before, it might be worth a read as it explains in detail what I am talking about

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/content.php?231-The-Dynamics-of-a-Tip-Tackle

My issue is that it should be based on the position of the head in relation to the hips - not between the head and feet/legs.

The feet/legs do not have a bearing on the position of the head and neck whereas the hips do.

In my opinion the referees are interpreting the line incorrectly.

I agree technically, but the bottom lines are

1. Was the player rotated through more than 90°?
2. Do the head and shoulders strike the ground first?
3. Was the player dropped or speared?

 

[smartcooky]

http://m.youtube.com/results?q=digby ioane tip tackle&sm=3
http://m.youtube.com/results?q=jonny wilkinson tackle justin bishop&sm=3

this tackle by JW is considered fantastic and tbh i think its a solid tackle, compared to the other link with digby ioane making a tackle they are the same. I just dont see why it has become dangerous. Nothing has changed, its the same tackle, it wasnt dangerous 10 years ago so why is it now?

Johnny Wilkinson tackle was in 2003

Digby Ioane's tackle was in 2012

Have a think about what happened in between those years, in particular 2005. When you get my meaning, you will realise what has changed.

Thumping hit, cant help thinking that tackle now would likley draw a yellow car or at least a TMO referral. I dont want rugby to lose that sort of tackle (btw what decision did the ref make following that?)

TMO referral maybe is the referee didn't get a decent look, but there is no way that will draw a yellow card. This is the type of tackle that the iRB want players to execute in place of the tip tackle.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That's a good article and one I agree with.

Ultimately though I have seen several yellow cards this season for tackles where the ref has cited the tackler taking the player "beyond the horizontal" when the hips, legs and or lower/middle back are clearly going to take the impact.

They see players backs form an angle up to 70 or 80 degrees, and call it as a tip.
What annoys me is that the tackles only become dangerous once the player goes beyond 90.
It's not progressively more dangerous from upright to 90... it's just closer to the point where it then becomes dangerous - it's binary, as it is with with high tackles.

 

[smartcooky]

That's a good article and one I agree with.

Cheers

They see players backs form an angle up to 70 or 80 degrees, and call it as a tip.
What annoys me is that the tackles only become dangerous once the player goes beyond 90.
It's not progressively more dangerous from upright to 90... it's just closer to the point where it then becomes dangerous - it's binary, as it is with with high tackles.

Yep, I agree. It should be a case of head below hips with the position of the legs being irrelevant.

 

[Big Ewis]

great tackle by Jonny Wilkinson. That a 10 would tackle like that.....little did he know he'd become French just some years later at the time.

 

[goodNumber10]

A few years ago, just after the Sam Warburton red card at RWC2011, I wrote an article for rugbyrefs.com, called "The Dynamics of a Tip Tackle". If you haven't seen it before, it might be worth a read as it explains in detail what I am talking about

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/content.php?231-The-Dynamics-of-a-Tip-Tackle

Cooky! That IS an excellent article, really good use of the pictures to explain the physics and i like how you don't' draw conclusions int he article about the warburton tackle but set it up so people can get to their own opinion using the correct methodology (is that the right word?).