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thw game is getting too slow

loosehead3

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too many reset scrums, slow walk to the line outs, .fake injuries to slow down play, too may penalties and cards,. the ball is in play only 10 - 15 minutes a game. what can be done?
 

Kiwiwomble

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personally...i would let more of the "small" stuff go, line balls where they go back a review the ball leaving the hand in super slow motion 5 times, same with groundings where it leave the hand a millimeter above the ground

i would also allow things like sacking of mauls, if the attacking team can stay up with the defending team on the ground trying to sack it then all good, we protect the team with the ball to much, make them get better at keeping it

I think a time limit on set plays, basically a shot clock as soon as the ref blows their whistle, possibly also allow the team with the feed to play even if the opposition isn;t ready, make it a race to form your 8 players up

i think a lot of scums penalties should be free kicks, its become too much of a weapon to milk a penalty, the scrum is just a competition for the ball...so possession of the ball should be the reward

I would recognise its too easy to get trapped in in a ruck, i think MOST players would rather be up in the line, if theyre being held in by an opposition player then thats not a penalty
 

Kiwiwomble

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I thought the stats said the ball was in play more than it ever has been?
That would be interesting, it doesn’t feel like it is, when I watch old games it feels much more free flowing, if your right though you have to wonder why if feels much more stop start
 

Le Frére Alpha

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Going down a very dangerous road if we reduce scrum penalties to free kicks, where's the incentive for the weaker scrum to stay up?

Same with alterations to cards and TMO input. Some refs/TMOs are overzealous with their use of video replay but I think that's more of a case of them being bad at their job than a rules issue.

I think making being a rugby referee an actually desirable profession rather than a side hustle is the way to go. Soccer referees are fully professional and far far better, most if not all rugby refs need to supplement their income quite considerably. Better remuneration and unified coaching for refs would go a long long way to bettering the game rather than tinkering with laws further.
 

RedruthRFC

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That would be interesting, it doesn’t feel like it is, when I watch old games it feels much more free flowing, if your right though you have to wonder why if feels much more stop start
If you go back to amateur days, the most stark difference to me is packs of forwards walking up to scrums and quickly "folding" together, which must save time. My guess would be that that's offset by the sheer volume of set pieces and the lack of urgency in getting to them, particularly in the days when you could kick direct to touch from anywhere.

My perception is that when you hear about ball in play time being high, it's compared to other times within the professional era. In particular the period when the "hit" meant multiple collapsed scrums nearly every time one was called.

It would be interesting to see a comparison of ball in play times from say the 1991 RWC to the next one.
 

RedruthRFC

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I think making being a rugby referee an actually desirable profession rather than a side hustle is the way to go. Soccer referees are fully professional and far far better, most if not all rugby refs need to supplement their income quite considerably. Better remuneration and unified coaching for refs would go a long long way to bettering the game rather than tinkering with laws further.
100% this. I've been saying for ages that the game just doesn't attract sufficient people of sufficient quality to have enough good referees. We've all seen the kinds of flow charts that explain the required outcome in given situations, I question some referees' ability to memorise and apply them under pressure. As an aside, it's one of the reasons I was a Wayne Barnes fan - in high-pressure situations (e.g. the France vs Wales scrumathon) he communicates very clearly and in doing so, clarifies his thought process to ensure he's doing things by the book.

I think in a lot of cases, there's a bit of a paradox - if you want to be a referee, you probably won't be a good one. Anyone who takes up refereeing because they want to be the centre of attention, or because they want to tell 46 bigger, more athletic people than they are what to do is likely to be a become referee. Furthermore, these are the people who are more likely to push to further their refereeing careers, so end up being promoted above their ability.

I understand the thinking, but the idea of fast-tracking young referees and former players is misguided. I understand the reasons, but the problem is that those responsible don't understand the sunk cost fallacy so end up compounding the error of promoting the wrong person by sticking with them or promoting them further.

Pure gut feeling, but I would like to see more effort put into encouraging and developing female referees. Based on a small sample size, I think that as a group, they're less likely to carry the counterproductive mental baggage that male referees have.
 

Don't Skip Leg Day

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On the topic of scrums, how can a scrum actually be pushed backwards without collapsing anymore. It’s hard to walk backwards while squatting down, let alone packed behind others. I’d argue that it’s impossible to properly do it in the modern game and therefore collapsing scrums shouldn’t be penalised on the way they are. I don’t know what the answer is but maybe if one side collapses and the other side are still on their feet it’s a clear penalty, otherwise it’s just reset.
 

die_mole

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That would be interesting, it doesn’t feel like it is, when I watch old games it feels much more free flowing, if your right though you have to wonder why if feels much more stop start
ball in play is up 300% from the 1999 to 2019 World Cup.

using ESPN scrum archive I went through the 1999 World Cup and the 2019 rugby World Cup. Penalties are down from 26 a game in 1999 to 16 in 2019. Cards per game in 1999 was .88 and in 2019 it was .8. I must hand it to whoever is pushing this narrative that there are too many penalties in the game and not enough ball in play time. They've convinced a lot of people that reality isn't real.
 

Old Hooker

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I think the ball is both in play for longer and when it is there is more ‘action’. At the weekend the commentators were wetting themselves over a 0.8 second ruck. Whether that is actually a good thing or not is another matter. Nonetheless more definitely happens.

I’m not as down on refs as many as we’ve created a virtually unrefereeable game compared to most. Of course things can always improve but there are a lot of players, a lot of laws, the pace is high and the ball and lines are often obscured from view. If they want they could penalise something at virtually every breakdown or set piece (which is 100% the players fault). You only have to look at so many inconclusive or marginal TMO decisions to see how hard their job is. Of course you want consistency from refs but you’ll never 100% get that - different cultures, personal interpretations etc - the best you can realistically hope for is clear communication and consistent decisions within any particular game.

That said I would hang, draw and quarter the lot of them for allowing feeding at scrums. And the lawmakers who came up with the direction of hands nonsense can join them.
 

die_mole

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the hands going backwards really the only way to judge a backwards pass or else every pass would be judged forwards. If you actually penalized crooked feeds we'd have all the people who hate whistles complaining even more. I'm indifferent to it but there seems to be no direction from world rugby.

There seems to be a crowd who want there to be more running rugby but also want the referees not to penalize anything. So we essentially would just have an 80 minute unwatchable shitshow.
 

Which Tyler

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Talking about reffing impossibilities
309450926_582760206953425_3424312094054776756_n.jpg
 

Reiser99

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I think one reason it feels slower is the TMO. While ball might be in play longer, the clock gets stopped more often and for longer. I'd like to see a comparison of how long games are including stoppages now with past games. It might provide an explanation.

As for scrums I've said for a while if the scrum is stable or not collapsed for 3-5 seconds the maximum that can be awarded is a free kick. This gives incentive to the weaker scrum to scrummage properly knowing if they do all they give away is a free kick. It also encourages the stronger scrum not to keep the ball in too long as they can't win a penalty. Penalties should only be for immediate collapses and wheeling the scrum on purpose.
 

die_mole

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my idea for scrums is that you get you get a scrum 10 from where the scrum collapsed. So if a team has a dominate scrum they'd still be able to march up the field it just wouldn't be as efficient. You'd still get yellow cards for repeat infringements and PT if it stops a try.

Screen Shot 2022 10 04 at 45928 PMI'd like to see lineup success rate go back to the pre/early lift rates. Don't make the penalty as much of a guaranteed reward.
 

Kiwiwomble

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On the topic of scrums, how can a scrum actually be pushed backwards without collapsing anymore. It’s hard to walk backwards while squatting down, let alone packed behind others. I’d argue that it’s impossible to properly do it in the modern game and therefore collapsing scrums shouldn’t be penalised on the way they are. I don’t know what the answer is but maybe if one side collapses and the other side are still on their feet it’s a clear penalty, otherwise it’s just reset.
that would be a big step forward, i think the fact we NEVER see a scrum march back more than...what?...5m at the most before breaking up says it just cant happen....so in reality a scrum is just a competition for the ball with potentially a 5m gain...and yet we see it turn into points and cards all the time
 

Blindside

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Scrums are often used to waste time.....when a scum collapses do not restart the clock until the game is back in open play again, some scrums are taking over 3 minutes with resets, with ten minutes leff 1/3 of the time can be taken up by a scrum. That just creates the incentive to slow the game, personally, I dont mind watching it as long as the clock is stopped.

TMO decisions are taking far too long, totally ridiculous, this does not happen in Rugby League.

We have massive players because there are too many long stoppages and the game facilitates muscle-bound hulks that cause massive collisions and can recover during stops, some of the SA Tests resemble American Football games with constant stoppages. How they get to that size is whole another can of worms, indeed it is the elephant in the room regards brain damage. Unnatural collisions where players have exceeded their genetic potential are a threat to player safety and the future of the game, yet nobody seems willing to confront the obvious regard the size of professional rugby players, i.e it's not natural and the game is facilitating it via its constant stoppages and substitution rules.
 

Old Hooker

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What I never understand is why the referee’s arm goes up against the weaker scrum virtually every time a pack starts to get a shove on. What are they actually being penalised for, being crap?
 

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