Discussion in 'General Rugby Union' started by O'Rothlain, Nov 27, 2006.
What's the deal? Let's discuss this...!
I am extremely annoyed, as one of the 75,000 people at the millenium stadium that day, that i did not get to see the haka. Who's fault it is, isn't ultimately my main concern. It didn't get done, so i'll deal with it.
But i do want to ask a question, and that is:
How is deciding WHEN before the match a danger to the haka which is so "integral to New Zealand culture and the All Blacks' heritage"???
I mean, i'm clearly ignorant to this issue, but it's not as if the opposition have elected to go and do a mock haka in front of the Kiwi's is it? Why does it make a difference if they have to do it before or after our anthem? They still get to do it and it would still be revered and received with great awe as they do it.
Now my knowledge isn't very good on this subject, but i thought the haka was a challenge. What good is a challenge if your stuck in your own changing room without the opposition is present?
There are clearly for too many contrasting circumstances, of which i have no knowledge, to truly remark upon this situation.
Still, i will not forgive the WRU or the kiwi's (whoever was at fault) for denying me the chance to see this haka live again.
the wru issued a statement which said, that they had actually asked this maori cheif, and this guy said that the welsh were in every right to issue a response after the haka, especailly as they were on home soil.
It was actually a Maori professor at Victoria University in New Zealand.
Anyway, a quote from Brian Moore, writing in today's Telegraph:
He does have a point. Its one of those few quirks of a sport that really sells Rugby to non traditional audiences.
You talk to many new converts to Rugby in North America or Asia and ask them what they saw that first interested them and they'll say "the haka" or "that Adidas advert with the haka in it."
Ladies and Gents, the haka is the perfect recruiting sergeant for the sport that is Rugby Union. Like it or loathe it, its an excellent way to advertise a sport!
The Haka itself is something that has deep symbolic, historical and cultural meaning, not just to New Zealand, but also to many other Pacific Islands like Tonga and Fiji for example. By integrating the ceremony into a team for a British sport, it sent out a powerful message (quite an earth shattering one) of integration, of two peoples managing to co-exist side by side and by accepting each other's culture they cemented that bond that forms the basis of New Zealand.
Watch any international featuring Tonga, Somoa or Fiji and they issue a Haka (I don't know if that's an all inclusive description for the warrior challenge, or what?)...better yet when New Zealand or any of the Pacific Isalnd teams face each other they do it at the same time. So, in light of that, what would be wrong for the Welsh to sing a song, or chant some sort of Welsh Language thing at the same time, and/or in response too it? I love the All Blacks, but I think this was a retarded (no offense) decision. So, booooo All Blacks. Learn from your mistake.
Must have been a huge disappointment not to see the Haka, strange days indeed.
Yup, WRB did contact two Maori elders about the correct protocol for the Haka, they both advised that Wales returning the challenge of the Haka with the Welsh National anthem is a fine example of 'protocol'.
The problem is that the WRB wanted to have the Haka performed between the national anthems, and that's where it went pair shaped.
The correct protocol is that you respect your nation first and then your team, which to us means you sing your national anthem, the country you are playing sings there's and then you move onto performing the Haka (it's easy... remember country first and then the players).
The two elders are on record as saying that this is what they advised the WRB as well.
If Wales had sung their National Anthem whilst the AB's where performing the Haka then there would have been no problem, no problem at all - they would have been returning the challenge.
It could be considered arrogant for the All Black players to take the stance that they did but for mine what they did was correct. For the players (AB's) there is a huge amount of respect and pride in the heritage and protocol of the Haka, to have it shifted or played around with is only going to cause offence.
Everyone that follows rugby knows the passion that Wales has for the game and for the AB's to take the stand they did then I thought it showed a lot of balls.
Will try and find some further information about the protocol of the Haka if anyone is interested, as it can be very confusing... and also surprising what is 'acceptable' in returning the challenge.
The best return of the Haka in 2007 in my books goes to Willy Mason of the Australian National Rugby league team during the Tri Nations Rugby League series who took the challenge and eyed his opposite number and promptly yelled at him to "get f&*ked".
I don't think the appopriate response was the Welsh national anthem. I think the proper response would be to thing one of your other songs in 75,000 in unison. Far more impressive than your national anthem.
I'm a New Zealander, and I'm right with you on this.
It's just the AB's taking the historical position of always doing it last, too far.
What does it matter, really? So, they've been doing it that way for 100 years. The Welsh have been singing at sporting events even longer.
We can sometimes be one-eyed about things, although I myself tend to look at it from both sides.
We wouldn't like Western Samoa coming over here and telling us that they get the last Haka.
It was Wales home, their land, their cultural pride that should have been honoured. I'd say that about England, France, Italy or anywhere.
We need to realise that the world doesn't revolve around our culture.
I may be wrong, but when we've played teams that perform a haka, haven't they gone last some times?
I know that we have gone at the same time once. Every other time I can remember the All Blacks go last.
Even if we have gone first, why couldn't we respect welsh culture and do it again?
Also, I'm sure we'd get the say in our country.
For however many years the Haka has been done last, then kickoff. Honestly the only reason that i can see why the Welsh wanted their anthem last was to inspire the Welsh Team. They consulted maori about it and were advised they are allowed a right of reply to the haka, technically yes and the teams whom do a challenge back have always been the PI nations as it is a part of their culture also. Aussie showed their great culture by deciding that Waltzing Mathilda qualified as a comeback(what a joke!).
Bottom line - if its not a part of your culture which seems to be the way with the europe nations then dont do anything as itll come off looking stupid ala Aussie.
The Welsh should have manned up and faced the Haka and then kicked off. IF the purpose was to weaken the AB's by not allowing it at the end then it serves the Welsh right that it only inspired the ABs to come out stronger.
Haka is part of NZ culture not just Maori and its something that makes NZ unique - Good on Richie and the boys for standing up to the WRU. The Haka is ours and we will not be told when we are to do it.
I personally liked David Kidwells reply to Willie Masons reply to the Haka better...
From what your captain Richie says, the haka looks like it's the NZ players...not yours as you claim it to be.
If it was yours, then surely the AB's would have accomodated the Welsh requests and done it on the field not in the "shed" - sounds like it belongs just to the players and not the fans.
nope if it was everyones then they would have accomodated the Welsh fans, but it is ours NZ's and i think youll find the majority of NZ supports them in their decision.
Yep we sure do....
The WRU were going to do something that is unheard of across most sports code....pre match entertainment inbetween anthems. To say they were going to use the national anthem as a response goes against international sporting ettiquette where the anthems in most codes are not interrupted. However it is their stadium so it is their call....the AB's haka being performed or not is the AB's call.
The thing is the WRU gave the AB's their "word" that last years mid anthem haka would be a one off....then they showed their character by going back on their word. The AB response was to not suck eggs by supporting a union that changes its mind.
Perhaps the WRU should have asked its players whether they wanted the haka during the anthem. Also the WRU should have asked the team how "they" wanted to respond to the haka....considering they are the ones playing they should have been given the option of what they wanted to do in response. I bet you that every Welsh player had probably dreamed as a boy about facing the haka and defeating the AB's so why would the WRU jeopardise that dream by acting presumptuously and acting in what they thought was the best interest of the players. Did they even think at all about consulting the players?
Well one thing is for sure.....if they ban the haka from the RWC final (if NZ make it) then expect a very angry team coming out and clocking a world record score for a final....45-10
Richie McCaw, "At the end of the day, the haka is about spiritual preparation and we do it for ourselves. Traditionally, fans can share the experience too..."
That to me sounds like the players regard it as theirs. "Theirs" as in the new zealand players, not "theirs" as in nz players AND fans.
You missed out as well that day as well, didn't you?
I still maintain that the impression i'm getting from your captain is that it belongs to the players.
The again, i can understand how that quote "ourselves" could include all new zealanders, but considering the fans were excluded from the awesome display that EVERYONE looks forward to, i feel inclined to say it's a players' thing.
I just hope this doesn't descend into a position with the Irish anthem, where we only get to perform it in Ireland but hopefully the IRB will see sense no doubt helped in that decision by the IRFU, we'll probably be looking for some test matches in return but I'm sure the Haka will stay.
You'd think people would have learned from the past that you don't mess with the Haka, what with the Wallabies warming up during it and promptly getting a doing, the Lions with their little farce and O'Driscoll ending up with a dislocated shoulder 5 minutes later, now this Welsh fiasco, leave well enough alone for **** sake. It's hard enough to beat the All Blacks at the best of times, firing them up as well won't make matters any easier.
1st of all.... lets get one thing straight...
The haka does not belong to the all blacks. it belongs to the iwi of the person that composed it. the all blacks have permission to use that haka. same with the new one.
what McCaw was meaning was performing the haka is up to them... they can choose to preform it to who they like and whenever they like. and thats fine with me.
if i wanted to do one of the many hakas i know to someone... i would do so because i want to do it. and on my terms.
the thing that annoys me most about the whole thing is the fact that the all blacks listened to the WRU.
they should have just told the WRU that they were not going to do it then just before kickoff walk up to halfway and do it. what are the WRU going to do??? send on security to stop them?? i doubt it.
the all blacks were right to take this stance. if the All Blacks do the haka they have a resposibility first and formost to do it correctly and upholding the Mana of the iwi it represents. if they were not comfortable doing it between the national anthems then thats just tough luck to the fans at the stadium. at least this shows that they are treating the culture with the respect it deserves.
as for all this crap about doing it for the homesick kiwis in the crowd... boooohooo..... most of them are in the UK on theyre OE and they couldnt give a damn about Maori culture when they come home. if they want to see the haka so badly why dont they go and learn it.
Great to see you know all those people personally and can generalise who they are because they are in the UK.
The Welsh don't have to respect any culture who visits their country more than they respect their own. I note everyone is concerned about offending Maori culture, shame that everyone forgets that they were in someone elses house. The WRU never forced the AB's to do the Haka, or told them not to. they only told them what the schedule was for THEIR event.
If you don't like it then boohooooo right back at ya.
yeah i was a bitt ****** off, it struck me as being a bit arrogant frm nz.
mccaw said something like "if they want to mess around with it, then we wont do it"
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