Tom Donnelly selection proves Racist NZ Maori team hurting ABs.

[wjd23104]

Now bear with me as i try to explain this. Graham Henry has complained that there is no level of rugby for Donnelly to gain Test match fitness outside the Allblacks. This of course isn't true. NZ Maori play England (Test playing nation obviously) in New Zealand on Wednesday. It is in fact the Perfect game for Mils and Donnelly to prove/ gain match fitness. Perfect except for the fact that some players can't play for the NZ Maori not because they aren't good enough obviously but because they weren't born to the right parents. The continuation of the 'unique' ( the only racially selected rugby union team in the world) NZ Maori team is not only morally wrong, it is also negatively affecting prospective ABs ( E.g Alby Mathewson) and Current ABs (Mils and Donnelly).

In light of Timana Tahu's brave stance against Racism in League, Maybe its time a few NZ Maori players walk out on a Team that is clearly continuing to promote Racism in New Zealand Rugby.

In fairness i'm not entirely sure Mils and Donnelly don't qualify for the New Zealand Maori Rugby Team but that doesn't mean there aren't players that this happens too.

 

[Jake Heke]

Wow, just wow... Are you serious? NZ Maori has been around for years, its embedded in our Rugby history, my Koro played in the NZ Maoris. And you want them to stop it because 2 players missed out on a match? Wow..**** me dead brah.

And it's in no way racist at all, it just shows how much us Maoris love rugby.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Wow ... can't believe someone has called them that.

The NZ Maori are part of rugby just as much as the Barbarians and the British and Irish Lions. Its something for every Maori to be proud of playing / supporting for and long may it continue. To call them racist is quite shocking. Its not racists in the criteria to be selected to them. Saying that is the equivalent of saying that its wrong not to include France and Italy in the Lions.

For me this thread is rubbish. Be interesting to see what other NZ fans say.

 

[Jake Heke]

And another thing, change that bloody thread ***le, this proves nothings.

 

[Conal]

this proves nothing going by your logic all national teams are racist as you have to be of that nation to play
the nz maori funny enough is a team for the ... maori
andalso the maori picked a squad to play think about there players it would probaly be quite annoying if you have been selected for the maori (likley never to bean all black star) a huge moment for you and then you get replaced so someone picked for another squad gets to prove his match fittness even without the selection process and its so called "racist angle" they shouldnt play theres other people picked for that team

 

[wjd23104]

Wow ... can't believe someone has called them that.

The NZ Maori are part of rugby just as much as the Barbarians and the British and Irish Lions. To call them racist is quite shocking. Its not racists in the criteria to be selected to them. Saying that is the equivalent of saying that its wrong not to include France and Italy in the Lions.

For me this thread is rubbish. Be interesting to see what other NZ fans say.

Why are you shocked at me calling them Racist? You cannot be selected in the team unless you have Maori Heritage ( Read DNA, Blood Race). I could be the best Rugby player in NZ ( and i'm clearly not) and i still wouldn't be able to make the NZ Maori team. And i'm a New Zealand Citizen and have NZ 'Heritage' that goes back over a hundred years. So why could i never make the NZ Maori? ( aside from the fact i'm a halfback with a terrible pass) Blood. Me, my Parents and Grandparents are not Maori. I mean i could get involved in my local Iwi, speak fluent Maori and be a strong constructive member of my local Maori community and still not be selectable for the NZ Maori because the first and most important selection criteria for the NZ Maori is Race.

Why is this not Racist?

Put it this Way if you had a NZ European Rugby Team whose Criteria was you must have this much (insert whatever measure you like) European blood/parentage surely you agree that would be racist. Please don't take this as an attack on anybody. I just believe that no one should be excluded from anything based on race. The whole NZ Maori concept should be quietly shelved after this year ( amazingly more than a decade after the South Africans came to there senses)

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Why are you shocked at me calling them Racist? You cannot be selected in the team unless you have Maori Heritage ( Read DNA, Blood Race). I could be the best Rugby player in NZ ( and i'm clearly not) and i still wouldn't be able to make the NZ Maori team. And i'm New Zealand Citizen, have NZ 'Heritage' that goes back over a hundred years. So why could i never make the NZ Maori? ( aside from the fact i'm a halfback with a terrible pass) Blood. Me, My parents,Grandparents are not Maori. I mean i could get involved in my local Iwi, speak fluent Maori and be a strong constructive member of my local Maori community and still not be selectable for the NZ Maori because the first and most important select criteria for the NZ Maori is Race.

Why is this not Racist?

Put it this Way if you had a NZ European Rugby Team whose Criteria was you must have this much (insert whatever measure you like) European blood/parentage surely you agree that would be racist. Please don't take this as an attack on anybody. I just believe that no one should excluded from anything based on race. The whole NZ Maori concept should be quietly shelved after this year ( amazingly more than a decade after the South Africans came to there senses)

Urm ... there is the Junior All Blacks, they can go and play for them. There is no such thing as European Blood either. The example I gave above is better. This thread lacks complete substance.

 

[wjd23104]

this proves nothing going by your logic all national teams are racist as you have to be of that nation to play
the nz maori funny enough is a team for the ... maori
andalso the maori picked a squad to play think about there players it would probaly be quite annoying if you have been selected for the maori (likley never to bean all black star) a huge moment for you and then you get replaced so someone picked for another squad gets to prove his match fittness even without the selection process and its so called "racist angle" they shouldnt play theres other people picked for that team

Let me clarify this point for you Riki Flutey played for England Not because he was born in England but because he spent two to three years there( residency). Put another way i could play for Samoa despite to my Knowledge no Samoan blood. How? live in Samoa for a few years. Please don't assume i haven't thought this through.

Urm what team could possibly have made may way for the NZ Maori? Its a team that played last year in a competition that was played again this year without them. Its the same team that Steve Tew has said is more profitable than the NZ Maori and was mentioned in your post. Oh yeah! The Junior All Blacks who play NO games this year because the NZ Maori are playing in their place. The Junior Allblacks is my solution to this problem, a team that anyone can be picked for regardless of race. Yes obviously theres no common European Blood. Lets rephrase that part a "NZ (insert european country e.g Turkey or France) Team.

 

[Conal]

i dont agree with flutey or diack or hape or any residency players should be your country of origin or families origin

 

[Jake Heke]

Why are you shocked at me calling them Racist? You cannot be selected in the team unless you have Maori Heritage ( Read DNA, Blood Race). I could be the best Rugby player in NZ ( and i'm clearly not) and i still wouldn't be able to make the NZ Maori team. And i'm a New Zealand Citizen and have NZ 'Heritage' that goes back over a hundred years. So why could i never make the NZ Maori? ( aside from the fact i'm a halfback with a terrible pass) Blood. Me, my Parents and Grandparents are not Maori. I mean i could get involved in my local Iwi, speak fluent Maori and be a strong constructive member of my local Maori community and still not be selectable for the NZ Maori because the first and most important selection criteria for the NZ Maori is Race.

Why is this not Racist?

Put it this Way if you had a NZ European Rugby Team whose Criteria was you must have this much (insert whatever measure you like) European blood/parentage surely you agree that would be racist. Please don't take this as an attack on anybody. I just believe that no one should excluded from anything based on race. The whole NZ Maori concept should be quietly shelved after this year ( amazingly more than a decade after the South Africans came to there senses)

I'll just say this, your a retard, I really can't be ****** to even argue this topic. You should just quit following rugby and start watching netball bro. They don't have a NZ Maori team, so thats good, isn't it?

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Let me clarify this point for you Riki Flutey played for England Not because he was born in England but because he spent two to three years there( residency). Put another way i could play for Samoa despite to my Knowledge no Samoan blood. How? live in Samoa for a few years. Please don't assume i haven't thought this through.

Well justify and give a better explanation then.

Your point is invalid however. You simply can't gain heritage through living in a country for so many years. People like Flutey and Hape come to England to play international rugby because the residency rules is quite relaxed. I don't agree with it personally. You can't simply become a Maori as much when someone gains English residency it does not simply make them English automatically. I can't even believe this debate is going on.

The NZ Maori are for people with Maori heritage. NZ does have an A-Side ... the Junior All Blacks and they can go and play for them.

 

[Jake Heke]

He can't be a true fan of rugby from New Zealand if he has this logic towards the NZ Maori, seriously. I've never ever heard something like this before, in that case, like Cymro said, we have NZ-A and the J-AB's.

 

[wjd23104]

I'll just say this, your a retard, I really can't be ****** to even argue this topic. You should just quit following rugby and start watching netball bro. They don't have a NZ Maori team, so thats good, isn't it?

Wow what a quality, reasoned and intelligently debated argument. Take a chill pill man. Theres no reason why this can't be discussed calmly. I realize calling the Maori team racist is likely to inflame some tensions but so did calling the South African Team racist. Just because something has history doesn't mean it can't be racist.

 

[wjd23104]

Well justify and give a better explanation then.

Your point is invalid however. You simply can't gain heritage through living in a country for so many years. People like Flutey and Hape come to England to play international rugby because the residency rules is quite relaxed. I don't agree with it personally. You can't simply become a Maori as much when someone gains English residency it does not simply make them English automatically. I can't even believe this debate is going on.

The NZ Maori are for people with Maori heritage. NZ does have an A-Side ... the Junior All Blacks and they can go and play for them.

As i have just reasoned with you thats an odd statement. Again Number of NZ Moari games this year 3. Number of games that Junior All Blacks play this year ZERO. Steve Tew has said the NZRU cannot afford to have both teams (NZ Maori and JABS).

And i take that 'can't be a True New Zealand Rugby Fan' Comment personally. I am an Extremely passionate NZ rugby supporter and i don't believe that and my few on the NZ Maori are somehow incompatible.

 

[Duckdee]

your a retard

I don't think I'll ever get tired of people posting that.

 

[wjd23104]

I don't think I'll ever get tired of people posting that.

I get tired of people falling back on insults and accusations instead of asking questions and arguing on the point. I'm trying to clarify my point and argue my side but i feel like people are jumping down my throat before waiting for me to reply to their critiques.

 

[Jake Heke]

Wow what a quality, reasoned and intelligently debated argument. Take a chill pill man. Theres no reason why this can't be discussed calmly. I realize calling the Maori team racist is likely to inflame some tensions but so did calling the South African Team racist. Just because something has history doesn't mean it can't be racist.

Whats there to debate? This issue has never been pressed into the media, ever. And here you are trying to intelligently accuse them of being racist, and wanting the team to be shelved next year because two players can't play against England? For what.... fitness?

Do you even know anything about the heritage of this team? heres a few facts for you bro.

Did you know the NZ Maori team have been around since 1888? Did you know they were the first NZ team to perform the Haka, which was later on adopted by our national team, and is continued till this present day?

But seriously, I agree with you mang, we should boycott this team completely. /sarcasmoff

they r disapoint

 

[wjd23104]

I don't think I'll ever get tired of people posting that.

i get tired of people falling back on insults and accusations instead of arguing the point and asking questions. I just feel like people are jumping down my throat before i have a chance to answer their critiques.

I am NOT saying we should scrap the NZ Maori because a couple of players have fitness problems. That was just the jump off point that i feel highlights the overall racist nature of the NZ Maori as previously explained. Now i believe the Maori program should be scrapped because it discriminates against Pakeha ( Maori for Non-Maori). It currently IS NZ-A because in order to have it the NZRU has Shelved the JABs (they are NZA) for this year. Yes i am aware the NZ Maori have been around for over a Hundred years and according to Wikipedia South African Rugby has been played since 1891. Age and History doesn't mean it can't be racist.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Ahem, I can't quite believe the vitriol, particularly from people outside of New Zealand. After all, I was told that my argument in regards to South African Rugby's so called "quota system" was invalid due to not living in the country.

Now, I'm not against the New Zealand Maori Rugby team, but the concept is and always has been a racially based. Some clown earlier in this thread said that all International Teams would be racist on these grounds. Incorrect, race and nationality are two very different things. Many nationalities field teams of all sorts of races. The New Zealand Maori team only fields players of one race.

It is the exact same thing as if England produced a team called something similar to the "Anglo-Saxons" and only allowed people of predominantly Caucasian Anglo-Saxon ancestry to play. It would be no different.


The key to all of this is the difference between racism as it is broadly defined today as "racial hatred and separatism" and something much better which is cultural tradition. I don't believe that there is any racial hatred in the ideals behind the New Zealand Maori team and I believe that in general it isn't founded on any "us and them" philosophy, with the exception of who the Maori play on the field.

It is the only team I know of in the world that can pick their team based on race and race criteria alone if it so wishes. That is the truth.

I harbour no ill will towards the team for that reason, but I'm really surprised at the bile spat at the OP.

His biggest mistake is referring to them as racist in terms of exclusion of the mentioned players. I don't believe they've wilfully excluded either of them. Also, I believe that if a European child was adopted by Maori parents and raised in the culture, that they'd be allowed to play for New Zealand Maori. If in that case, the child wasn't, then I'd say that was fairly racist. The problem is such examples aren't really out there to prove anything as yet.

The OP has merely put things into a context that is technically correct in definition, but doesn't reflect the spirit of the team.

Also, Jake Heke, something having a lot of history doesn't always make it good. NZ Maori is not the following things (or anything like them), but many things have had long histories and began horrible traditions. Such as slavery, apartheid and segregation. Many folks could not understand what the big deal was over those horrible things. I say again, New Zealand Maori rugby is none of those things. I'm merely proving that long standing tradition is not the basis for how the world works forever. Motor racing the world over isn't doing much for the planet, but is a big tradition now.

The reaction from others to the OP's post almost made me think he'd managed to make a loaded weapon appear through your computer screen, lol.


By the way, I can't use my old methods to change the thread ***le, but I would if I could just now.

 

[Duckdee]

It is the exact same thing as if England produced a team called something similar to the "Anglo-Saxons" and only allowed people of predominantly Caucasian Anglo-Saxon ancestry to play. It would be no different.

I'd like to see the RFU try, considering how much we've been invaded in the past.