Too much of a Good thing?

[munstermuffin]

Good article

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

There are less games down South even while its up from previous years due to the reformatted Super rugby series but it is getting to be too much IMO as well so I sympathise with the North.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The only problem I'd have with that schedule would be the 6N and Summer tour so close to each other, but I completely agree with doing away with the playoffs in the Aviva,
Also scrapping the LV=, it's a pointless competition

 

[Teh Mite]

The only problem I'd have with that schedule would be the 6N and Summer tour so close to each other

Seems to work for the Tri-Nations and November tours. Worth also mentioning they come up here with a bit of momentum because of it.

 

[munstermuffin]

If we did do that format then where would we fit the World Cup and Lions tour etc.
Also I think if 6Nations was in summer we'd scrap summer tests or just 1 off games

 

[munstermuffin]

If we did do that format then where would we fit the World Cup and Lions tour etc.
Also I think if 6Nations was in summer we'd scrap summer tests or just 1 off games

 

[Teh Mite]

If we did do that format then where would we fit the World Cup and Lions tour etc.
Also I think if 6Nations was in summer we'd scrap summer tests or just 1 off games

World Cups over-lapping are unavoidable (as I mentioned). Surely the Lions series is considered a Summer Tour so would happen then?

Something has to give as the current format is unsustainable and killing the appeal of the game to all but the hardcore support.

 

[munstermuffin]

World Cups over-lapping are unavoidable (as I mentioned). Surely the Lions series is considered a Summer Tour so would happen then?

Something has to give as the current format is unsustainable and killing the appeal of the game to all but the hardcore support.

I understand but a national team tour last 3 weeks and a lions tour is 6 weeks.
And then we have to factor in the seasons and different Unions management of players

 

[munstermuffin]

World Cups over-lapping are unavoidable (as I mentioned). Surely the Lions series is considered a Summer Tour so would happen then?

Something has to give as the current format is unsustainable and killing the appeal of the game to all but the hardcore support.

I understand but a national team tour last 3 weeks and a lions tour is 6 weeks.
And then we have to factor in the seasons and different Unions management of players

 

[Teh Mite]

I understand but a national team tour last 3 weeks and a lions tour is 6 weeks.
And then we have to factor in the seasons and different Unions management of players

IF they all went by that model though, that wouldn't be an issue.

Their season would still end at around the same time as it does now, it's just re-jinking in order to create streamlining. The players still came back late after the last lions tour then compared with a normal touring season anyway.

 

[gingergenius]

any sour grapes because northampton can't win a match at the moment? you do have a point though.

Unfortunately international rugby cannot be compared to football. 1) International football is crap. It gets exciting once or twice every 4 years, at which point the whole world gets so overexcited that I feel I need to be grumpy just to counteract it. 2) The clubs pay their England stars £00000000s, and have either spent £00000000s getting them to the club or spent £0000000s on developing them through their academies.

Let's look at international rugby, where it is undeniably the highest level of the game. Rivalries are more intense than at club level, and matches mean more. What's more, rugby clubs have no money. They rely on RFU grants (in particular with their academy players), and they rely on people like Nigel Wray just to keep them afloat.

The reason they have international windows in football is to keep the clubs happy. The reason they don't in rugby is because the calendar is already too congested. England are going to play at least 8 games throughout our winter, so Chris Ashton will be absent from 8 Saints games, plus a few more because Johnson says he has to.

One solution? Take out LV Cup.

Pros: The competition is pointless; less fixtures
Cons: The LV Cup already takes place during international windows, so Premiership matches Ashton misses will remain the same; clubs like making ££££ from more matches

Another? Extend season and move all Prem matches away from international window.

Pros: Clubs get their international players available to them for the entire campaign.
Cons: Test players are now playing 10+ tests per year, plus a full calendar of Prem and European fixtures; they're getting less break in the summer. So, injuries are more likely, and clubs will miss out on these players just as much anyway.

I don't think there is much of a solution here. What we are seeing is a gulf developing between the Heineken Cup and the Premiership. In the HC all sides have all their players available, and the classiest sides are the ones that go far. In the Prem, it's the squads with the greatest depth. Which is why Northampton suffer in the GP but cruise in the HC, and vice versa for Saracens.

 

[Teh Mite]

any sour grapes because northampton can't win a match at the moment?

After spending close to £150 over the weekend all in going to see that shower of **** at Bath and knowing the exact reason why, yes. I have however been singing a similar tune for years and have only put more thought into it of late.

Pick up a callender and work out the system I explained. It works.

 

[munstermuffin]

What I would say is isn't that reason play-offs were introduced like the target is top 4 so you can try rest players at different stages but Bullitt my point from last post in relation to seasons was from a SH view.
If the Summer tests are in July, then that means for likes of NZ,SA or Aus they could be playing as a team from July until end of Nov tests when you take in the Tri-Nations (Lets not forget Argentina joining soon too)

 

[Teh Mite]

What I would say is isn't that reason play-offs were introduced like the target is top 4 so you can try rest players at different stages but Bullitt my point from last post in relation to seasons was from a SH view.
If the Summer tests are in July, then that means for likes of NZ,SA or Aus they could be playing as a team from July until end of Nov tests when you take in the Tri-Nations (Lets not forget Argentina joining soon too)

So as I alluded to, to relieve the fixture congestion the lunatics running the asylum introduced more matches instead of less. Fine, they want the clubs to rest their players. But then they grip the throat of ambitious clubs by introducing a wage cap meaning those that can afford to have high-calibre quality in reserve aren't allowed to have the good backup for their first choice players.

****** if they do, ****** if they don't.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think that my point instead of reducing games they should think on how clubs can obtain a higher quality reserve but have to manage it incase clubs do overspend etc. I understand and agree with your point but don't see how your solution would work properly

 

[gingergenius]

After spending close to £150 over the weekend all in going to see that shower of **** at Bath and knowing the exact reason why, yes. I have however been singing a similar tune for years and have only put more thought into it of late.

Pick up a callender and work out the system I explained. It works.

As I said, you have a point and make sense. But, the LV cup won't be scrapped because of money. Also, your system would have to apply to both hemispheres, and as it stands SH clubs would be missing players for the entirety of June, July and November.

Lastly, 6N in June? Ok, let's put tradition aside for a moment. Why do I spend all of January being excited about the 6N? Because nothing bloody happens in January. The 6N is part of a wider cultural calendar that's evolved to give the great British public things to do all year round, starting with the 6N, going through boat race/ Test matches/ Wimbledon/ Open/ all the music festivals/ Carnival/ Proms/ AIs/ Christmas etc etc. As it stands, the 6N fills the gap between Christmas and Easter beautifully. Besides club fixtures in rugby & football, perhaps the odd horse race or prizefight - there's nothing big to be excited about. Moving the 6N into June, which is already packed with events, is pointless.

 

[Teh Mite]

Lastly, 6N in June? Ok, let's put tradition aside for a moment. Why do I spend all of January being excited about the 6N? Because nothing bloody happens in January. The 6N is part of a wider cultural calendar that's evolved to give the great British public things to do all year round, starting with the 6N, going through boat race/ Test matches/ Wimbledon/ Open/ all the music festivals/ Carnival/ Proms/ AIs/ Christmas etc etc. As it stands, the 6N fills the gap between Christmas and Easter beautifully. Besides club fixtures in rugby & football, perhaps the odd horse race or prizefight - there's nothing big to be excited about. Moving the 6N into June, which is already packed with events, is pointless.

The Heineken cup & other competitions which aren't LV ********. Raises the club profiles which in turn raises the games profile which in turn raises the national teams to unprecedented highs unseen before.

Or the ever decreasing circle continues. And we go "whoopie" come the autumn because once March is over we have the "huge" matches against New Zealand, South Africa and Australia. Again.

Maybe I'm just bored and fed up of the same **** year after year.

 

[munstermuffin]

Scrap some of AI's and Summer Tour games.
New format maybe to reduce league games (Like make conferences within League)
Increase Salary cap slightly

 

[Teh Mite]

​

You know what's wrong with rugby? We have too much of it. Way too much of it.​

Ranty fan is gonna rant, but I'm absolutely correct on this occasion. I'm looking at this years fixture list and it is physically impossible for every match top level players are expected to play to not overlap. A test player in the Premiership has potentially 53 matches a year forced upon them presuming you count every league match, the LV= cup, the Heineken Cup and of course all the test matches. That's over the 1-per-week threshold and doesn't allow for any time off.

This of course means that player fatigue is high, there is no space on the fixture list for re-arranged matches and it's the fans who get a bum deal.

The entire rugby calendar is geared about 8 test sides who play each other routinely. These fixtures have become so repetitive in recent years it actually generates all the excitement of a common cold. For the 14 weeks or so that Test rugby is not heir apparent, those of us (the common fan) heads out to watch our various club/province competitions.

In years gone by this was little more than a weekend distraction, but since professionalism this has become an expensive hobby – Anything between £300 and £1000 a year for a season ticket, away games costing anywhere up to £250 a game when you factor in transport and accommodation. Then food, drink and replica shirts also included into the bundle makes it just as expensive as soccer for the normal man in viewing costs.

So let's set the scene on those terms:

John is a Manchester United fan. Manchester United are away to Arsenal on a Saturday in a really important fixture – They stated the season fairly brightly but recently had a slump and now rish not making the top 4. John has paid £35 for transport, £60 for his match ticket and god only knows how much for beer and pies. Sadly for John however, England and Ireland are having a match at the same time. This means Rio Ferdinand, Wayne Rooney, John O'Shea, Michael Owen, Michael Carrick, Owen Hargreaves, Wes Brown & Robert Brady are all missing. Arsenals are also missing a couple, but they are Walcott and Wilshere. What effectively has become Uniteds team get thumped 4-1 by the relatively secure Arsenal squad. The following week, United host Liverpool who've only lost Gerrard to England and get beaten at home 2-0. United drop out of the top 4, their season is ruined and they run the risk of financial ruin by not qualifying for Europe. John still paid full price for that ticket too.

This would not be acceptable if it happened in Football, but in Rugby it's considered fine, nay expected. While rugby is supposed to be a developing game it is strangled with its hands being tied by ancient laws and codes of conduct from a bygone era, back when it was normal for the players would smoke a pipe at halftime with a glass of scotch.

Since when has it been an acceptable code of conduct to force a business to perform at peek risk yet simultaneously strip them of resources on the whim of a 3rd party decision maker? Surely for the development of the sport, it is better to keep the units running smoothly and then bring out the elements for the test rugby separately?

As we stand the average premiership player will compete in the following:
22 Premiership Matches (+ 2 knock out rounds) = 24
4 LV= Cup Matches (+ 2 Knockout rounds) = 6
6 Heineken/ECC Matches (+3 knockout rounds) = 9

That's potentially 39 weeks of the calendar which your typical rugby player competes in and your typical rugby fan pays for already before test rugby is factored in.

Then add:
Six Nations: 5 matches (+1 Gap week) = 6
November Tests: 4 matches (+ 1 gap week) = 5
Summer Tours: 3 matches = 3

14 weeks of Englanding about.

My maths: 39 + 14 = 53. 1 Year + 1 Week.

There isn't enough hours in the day for this. No wonder there are club vs country issues.

There is too much rugby and they (the powers that be) then add more rugby to compensate for being too much rugby in the first place (what else do you think the playoffs are for?)

Here is my solution to fix the NH season (let's pretend the World cup isn't happening for the sake of reasoning):
- The LV=Cup & Premiership playoffs are scrapped. This saves 6 weeks of rugby already.
- Season starts on the first weekend in September (in 2011, this is September 3rd)
- Regular Premiership and HEC rugby is played up until the first weekend in November
- Test are allocated available for the 3rd, 10th, 17th, & 24th of November 2011. No club rugby is played in the Premiership.
- The Premiership & European season resumes on 31st November 2011.
- The Premiership and European Seasons are played until completion until June 2nd 2012 (allowing for longer French domestic season to complete also) – The "club season" ends
- The Six nations begins on June 9th 2012 – This is the "international season beginning"
- The Six Nations is completed on July 7th 2012.
- The Summer Tours begin on July 14th
- The Summer Tours are completed by the end of July / early August – "international season" ends.
- Total rugby played: 45 weeks. Maximum.
- All test players have approximately a months rest/off season, longer for club players.
- The club season resumes first weekend in September.

This will allow for a the fixture congestion issues to be resolved, the fans don't pay through the nose to watch half strength teams for 40% of the season, the competitions values & intensity increase by the uninterrupted continuity and the sport benefits by the higher calibre of players being far more accessible to the non-Twickenham fraternity.

As a rugby fan who can pay upwards of £150 a week to follow my club team across the length and breadth of the country – and finding myself resenting the national side because of the issues stated above – this is what I believe is a fair solution to an already recognised and acknowledged problem.

Right. I'm off to watch the Wanderers get panned by Gloucester because we're missing 2/3 of the Saints team. Cheerio.

 

[smartcooky]

Sorry to drag this one up. I didn't see this originally.

Bullit. You have a point about all this, but the problem from our (SH) perspective is that the domestic competitions are less important to us than the international programme.

When a player cannot play for his club/province/franchise because he is required for duty with the National team, we just accept that as part of life. Playing for your country is the highest honour, and transcends all duties with your club or province. You will struggle to find many Kiwi rugby fans who would resent losing a player from a domestic match because he was playing for the All Blacks.

Also, the expansion of the Super Rugby programme is about trying to make domestic rugby more profitable. The NZRU (and I am sure the ARU) make a significant majority of their coin from internationals. For the last several years (last year excepted) weakened NH teams have been sent to the SH, costing the National Unions (especially the ARU) $millions in reduced gate takings and reduced value for TV rights.

What I advocate is similar to what you have outlined, but with one exception. I would scrap the existing Autumn Internationals (four matches) and June Tours (three matches) and replace it with a single four or five week international window, perhaps some time between the end of the Tri-Nations and the beginning of the NH Domestic season. That would give a saving of two to three weeks off the schedule.

During that window, teams from each hemisphere travel in both directions, so for example, New Zealand and Argentina travel north to play England, Wales and Italy, while France, Ireland and Scotland travel south to play South Africa and Australia. One or two teams would be rotated each year, except in a world cup year, where the normal international window would be replaced with a "free" international window where teams could arrange their own fixtures as World Cup warm-up matches.