Tri Nations: Springboks - All Blacks @ Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium (20-8-2011, 15:05)

Discussion in 'Tri Nations 2009-2011' started by Darwin, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Very well said Jer1cho!

    At the end of the day, I'd rather win the World Cup and play ugly than play really flashily and not make it out of the groups
     
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  3. DariusLovehall

    DariusLovehall Academy Player

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    You only need to watch a good game of League to see the difference...
    Your average Rugby League forward will make between 30 and 40 tackles and take the ball to the line between 15 and 20 times in an NRL match.

    Each game has its pro's and cons but as a spectator sport its hard to beat Rugby League ... its such a fast and skilful sport and so very watchable.
     
  4. TRF_Ezequiel

    TRF_Ezequiel Kanko Krazy!!!

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    It bugs me that all people remember is the tryless final.

    8 tries against Samoa (59-7)
    3 tries against England (36-0)
    4 tries against Tonga (30-25)
    9 tries against USA (64-15)
    5 tries against Fiji (37-20)
    4 tries against Argentina (37-13)

    Including the tryless final, that is still a 4.7 try average per game


    And these matches included some tough encounters. It's not like we played Portugal, Italy and Romania for instance ;)


    4.7 tries per match is quite awesome for a boring team that only wins with penalties ;)
     
  5. Seaton

    Seaton First XV

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    Or Scotland Bs for that matter...
     
  6. Sker

    Sker First XV

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    Didn't we have four tries in the 36-0 victory?

    EDIT: Oops, nope we didn't
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2011
  7. TRF_Ezequiel

    TRF_Ezequiel Kanko Krazy!!!

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    I know my history haha. I am pretty sure it was 3. If we did score 4 tries, we would have only 2 conversions, missing 2 others. Impossible given the fact we had Percy as our kicker ;)
     
  8. Sker

    Sker First XV

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    Good point, I remember that game, was at a camp in Grabouw. People bought along a generator and somehow got dstv working in the middle of nowhere. Man I can't wait for September!
     
  9. TRF_Ezequiel

    TRF_Ezequiel Kanko Krazy!!!

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    That sounds legendary haha. I cannot wait either. It's sad that the only months I wasn't in South Africa over the years, was in 2007. Looking back, that was awesome because I got to visit all the matches of the Springboks during the World Cup haha. Man, I cannot wait to go back to SA to watch rugby like it is supposed to be... Biltong in one hand, Castle in the other and a braai afterwards...
     
  10. Shaggy

    Shaggy First XV

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    Yes, I think if most New Zealanders are honest, they'd accept that too ... I get the point about expansive rugby being a better spectacle for the masses, that Nick makes, and also that a game closer in scores has an added tension factor, and that adds excitement ... it's horses for courses really (I enjoy both types of matches)

    ... you and Jer1cho are spot on that the accumulation of points through penalties, is likely to be at least a contributing factor to the way all teams play from the quarter finals onwards ... bonus points aren't awarded for four tries after the pool stages, and it's knock out from then on, so it may be a case of accumulating points to make the game safe, before playing a more expansive style ... yes, the ABs and Wallabies may run it more to achieve field position and try to score tries, but they will certainly take shots at goal if they are in range
     
  11. FlukeArtist

    FlukeArtist Bench Player

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    I have to agree with the posts on here re the style of rugby on display during the World Cup.

    A newspaper article I was reading recently critiqued all of the previous World Cup tournaments for their entertainment value.
    Saffas will be pleased to know that the '95 World Cup came in first place. This was partly due to the political backdrop, but also due to the games played during the tournament (and one Jonah Lomu - it must be said)

    That remains the one Rugby World Cup that anyone outside the big Rugby playing nations will really have any memory of. This is due mainly to Jonah, and more recently, Clint Eastwood and his story about the tournament.

    The last thing Rugby needs (I am am speaking from a NZ perspective here) is a dour, penalty and drop-goal infested bore-fest.

    It has been noted in various NZ media about the need for this World Cup to be a success for the continued growth of Rugby in this country.
    I believe this is true, because the harsh reality of professional sport is that is has to be entertaining. And for the last few years, Rugby has been losing ground to Rugby League for spectacle and entertainment, and also to Soccer- due to the All Whites making the World Cup last year and performing OK

    Ask any average joe on the street what they would rather watch: soemone scoring a try, or someone kicking a penalty/drop goal. I guarantee you the world over, the try would be an overwhelming majority. In NZ, it would be a unanimous decision.

    I sincerely hope this tournament provides decent games of running rugby.

    I hope for the good of rugby that the teams that don't play decent running rugby don't get anywhere near the final. The last thing the game needs is another tournament like '07.

    Anyway- I honestly believe that Rugby Union could have solved all the problems re too many penalty kicks/drop goals by simply changing the points structure years ago.
    Lets face it, most penalties are hardly really worth 3 points- its seems far too heavily weighted considering you only get 5 for a try, which takes FAR, FAR, FAR more skill and execution to pull off.

    But the old tosspots at the RFU would never change that because that is England's strength and they woudl strugglewithout shots at goals/droppies.

    I am a firm believer that the points scoring system of League should be adapted, as it is far mroe consistent with the endeavour and effort it takes to actually acheive the task it takes to get the points. (ie: 4 points for a try, 2 for conversions and penalties, and 1 for a drop goal)
    3 points for a drop goal is a joke, and dosn't encourage any endeavour.
    Drop goals should be a game breaker, not a game winner (or a cheap way to acrue points with very little endeavour)

    I should stress here, that I am a rugby man, but come from a league family. League has been professional for 100 years longer than rugby. They have had more time to fine tune the entertainment side of the game, and also get the laws right.

    I believe if rugby wants to be progrssive and move forward, we need to learn from other professional sports. I think the points scoring system from league would be a good place to start.
     
  12. TRF_Ezequiel

    TRF_Ezequiel Kanko Krazy!!!

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    I don't think anybody is saying they prefer dropgoals or penalties over tries. The thing we are saying is that we prefer:

    winning with dropgoals or penalties

    over

    losing with scoring a bunch of tries
     
  13. FlukeArtist

    FlukeArtist Bench Player

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    And I guess that is the sad thing Ezekiel.

    That teams that score more tries sometimes don't win.

    And shouldn't scoring tries be the ultimate goal?
    Not playing to get penalties?

    Thats not good for the game on a whole. It won't win Rugby any new fans or grow the game worldwide, due simply to the fact its not good entertainment.
     
  14. TRF_Ezequiel

    TRF_Ezequiel Kanko Krazy!!!

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    Teams are not playing to score tries, they are not playing for money, they are not playing to score tries, they are not playing to perform flashy backhand-flip passes...

    Teams play to win. Easy as that. If you get a penalty or dropgoal which gives you 3 points and it wins you the match, why not do it? Should you risk losing by desperately trying to score a try?

    The only matches where flashy play is more important than winning are the ones where they raise money for charity. You can call it sad, I call it sportsmanship. You play to win, easy as that. I agree that winning with penalties in stead of tries is less satisfying, but that only lasts a day. In the end you are happy you won. People claiming otherwise are just fooling themselves.
     
  15. FlukeArtist

    FlukeArtist Bench Player

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    Ezekiel,

    I'm not trying to claim that I wouldn't be happy if my team won on penalties- read what I wrote.

    I am saying that:

    1- It is simply not good entertainment, and does nothing to grow the game worldwide (I mean- people in the states don't watch NFL for the field goals, and people here is NZ are starting to turn to league simply because the game has better entertainment value these days) I want to see Rugby grow and flourish, and the current system is not encouraging positive play.

    2- I think it is a rip that 2 penalties, or 2 drop goals are worth more than a try. As I stated before the endeavour and effort it takes to score a try exceeds the other point scoring methods and this should be reflected in the points awarded for each.

    Again- just my opinion, but Rugby suffers for this point scoring system.
    They changed the points scoring system in the early 90s. No reason why they can't change it again now
     
  16. donmcdazzle

    donmcdazzle First XV

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    They should leave tries as 5 points, but reduce penalties to two points. People worrying about constant infringing due to lesser punishment, well yellow cards get dished out for repeated infringement so I wouldn't worry about it.

    Good on SA fans for backing their team, it has been a rough couple of years for them getting spanked by all comers so let them bask in the rare win. And it's a good result cause now PDV will think he was right all along and they'll keep playing like that which will help NZ in the world cup.
     
  17. Shaggy

    Shaggy First XV

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    Yeah, I don't really agree with you on this occasion Fluke ... it's unfair to use the Rugby League scoring system as a model for how Rugby Union should go, because many of the types of offenses that union players get penalised for, do not exist in league, as in dropping the scrum to prevent quick play from the scrum, handling the ball in the ruck, tackler not rolling away, players lying in the ruck.

    ... all of these offenses are designed to slow the team on attack down, while the defense regroups ... surely if a penalty is worth more, it's a greater incentive for players not commit the offence in the first place, and thus should contribute to the speed of the game.

    ... also, if a player commits a cynical foul while protecting their goal line, more often than not, their team has to commit multiple offences before one of their players is carded, so, while they probably are conceding three points, they are actually preventing the attacking team from scoring five or seven points by preventing a try, so they have already, in effect, been rewarded by two or four points ... why reward them further by lessening what a penalty is worth.

    I put those that want to lessen what a penalty kick is worth, in the same basket, as those that advocate that the scrum rules should change, just because their team's scrum is weaker than other teams scrums ... just because it doesn't suit the way your team likes to play, or the type of game you like, does not mean the rules need to change.

    ... If you don't like how much a penalty is worth, players need to quit giving away penalties, then teams can't score from them, can they
     
  18. DariusLovehall

    DariusLovehall Academy Player

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    Yeah i def think the drop goal should be worth 1 point - its really to
    the detriment of the game that it remains 3 points.
    Those arm wrestle games where your coming down to the final minutes and both teams are tied would be all the more climactic with a 1 point drop goal option.
     
  19. InsaneAsylum

    InsaneAsylum First XV

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    Just wanted to add my 2 cents to the tries versus points debate. One of the reasons why i don't watch league is because i know what every game is going to be like. this is the exact reason I love rugby, not knowing the strategy each team will take to win the game (cue smart ass response), it keeps things interesting. My opinion is that if a team scores more tries, and loses the game it's their own fault, they got beaten strategically.
     
  20. Dizzy

    Dizzy First XV

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    I'm sorry but because I was brought up in a very Rugby environment, I find Rugby League very boring to watch. I mean, you say it's such a fast sport where I would disagree because after every tackle you have to stop and reset, where as in Rugby it's continuous and if you've watched the All Blacks lately, you'd really know what fast sport is. When I watch league, I change the channel on numerous occassions for the simple fact that I know what's going to happen, this teams gonna get tackled 5 times then kick the ball. The scrum is a complete laughing stock and hit ups and offloads are like their main statistic it's hillarious. Rugby has so much more variety and the demand for physical fitness is [imo] second to no sport in the world. Sure when stoppages occur the game seems like it's slow, but when the ball is in hand, you don't know when something is going to happen or even how...

    So that's my 2 cents
     
  21. FlukeArtist

    FlukeArtist Bench Player

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    @ Shaggy

    A couple of counter-points to your argument:

    1. Under a law change they would still be getting 2 points for the penalty in all those situations, plus the referee still has the option of cards. Multiple offences still are punishable.

    2. The breakdown penalties is such a grey area anyway, that the referree ostensibly "gifting" 3 points to the opposition is in reality WAY too harsh in some circumstances. How many times have you watched a game where you can not work out why the referee has penalised one team or the other? I would argue that you would see this at least once if you watched 2 games of rugby.

    3. Comparing the penalty points change to a change in scrum rules is comparing oranges and apples. It is a red herring and one has little to do with the other in terms of the points argument. I don't condone changing scrum riles, I love the scrum (being a hooker myself). If you change those rules, then you may as well take away lineouts and contesting for the ball at breakdowns, and turn it into league. As I say- scrum rules have nothing to do with changing the pints structure.

    4. None of your points really address the key issue I was trying to raise regarding growing the game and its value as "entertainment"

    5. If this your opinion on penalties, where do you stand re Drop goals?
     
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