Upset of the tournament

[Rugby_Cymru]

England would have won WC2003 without johnny, he didn't have a good tournament at all. Wouldn't have won it without johnno, but could cope without johnny.
[/b]

You wouldn't have beaten Wales in the QF's without Johnny's boot, let alone win the world cup.
He was integral to your success.

 

[Prestwick]

Yes, as was the rest of the England team integral to our success in the World Cup

 

[Melhor Time]

Yes... It Must be hindsight. I'm sure when you heard that 2 Men who couldn't even stand being in the same room as each other appointed as Co-Coaches on the eve of the 1991 RWC you tipped the All Blacks all the way. I'm also sure that when the ABs were hammered at home in the Bledisoe Cup in the Months leading up to the RWC you rushed down and placed a large chunk of money on them.

In other words you don't actually know. You are guessing.

And you have a go at me because my age? You do know that the All Blacks under Laurie Mains had a 50% recording between 1992 and the start of the 1995 RWC? We lost to England in 1993, lost the Bledisoe Cup in 94 and lost a home series that year as well. And the South African/All Black results between their re-entrance to international Rugby and the 1995 Final?

All Blacks 27-24 Ellis Park Johannesburg
All Blacks 22-14 Carisbrook Dunedin
All Blacks 13-9 Athletic Park Wellington
Drew 18-18 Eden Park Auckland

A 3 Point Victory, a 8 point victory and a 4 point Victory with a draw, 3 of those tests at home. The All Blacks have dominated all those before them for 3 years, but because a couple of games were close they are now screwed, but the All Blacks supposedly had the wood on the Boks leading up to the 95 World Cup Final with a draw and 2 victories where the margin was less than a unconverted try?

Please provide proof that NZ were favourites instead of guessing.

It tells us that the French, after getting a record hammering at home in the wet at the hands of the AB's were forced to scuttle and make widespread changes? Just because they made changes, it doesn't mean jack. I'm supposed to be impressed because they got pushed around such Rugby Superpowers like Scotland and Wales? Believe it or not I think we are on a bit of a different level to the 6 Nations teams they had to face this year.

France had good wins over bpth Wales and Scotland actually. Better wins than NZ did over Argentina and Ireland. Are you learning yet?

Scott Hamilton... you mean the one who only made the Tri Nations squad because of injuries, and after struggling to make the Crusaders starting 15 is now barely able to make the Junior All Blacks squad? Sam Tuitopou... Sam Tuitopou, I remember him, I heard his name, it was also in the Junior All Blacks squad. Masoe, Weepu, Sommerville, Oliver, MacDonald, Eaton, Tuialili all hardly regular starters (funnily enough, 4 Players who started that game - Tuitopou, Gear, Hamilton and Tuialili failed to even make the 30 man AB squad named this week)

So you don't know who Gonzalo Longo is. You are an idiot trying to chat rugby if you don't think a world class forward is a winger! The player I didn't list played opposite Longo. Can you work out who he is yet?

Hamilton actually came in late against Argentina to replace Sivivatu who had been named to start the match at Velez Sarsfeld.

Wow, imagine that, I'm an All Black fan, so I'm not impartial... SHOCK. HORROR. Whats next, your going to tell me that the Right Wingers tend to disagree with left wing politics? And what tendancies have you covered in detail. Last time I checked the All Blacks under Henry don't tend to get 3 players sin binned, please don't tell me you are ignoring the majority of the tests and trying to desperatly zero in on games where Henry was still experimenting and have no bearing on the current AB teams... again?

You are not capable of evaluating the standard of other teams because you have your head up your ass. At least you have admitted it here.

No need to "sware"... and of course BOD was a whinger, he even whinged and made up a bunch of lies about the medical staff, and Tiquri probably shouldn't have been suspended, 10 minutes in the bin would've done me.

I never swore... Christ you are incapable of reading. So Umaga and Mealamu were justified in slammign a player on his head, even though this is illegal and infact warrants large bans? Your lack of understanding of the international game is amazing.

Really? You seem to think that RSA and Arg have improved while the AB's have remained stagent, and that past World Cups should only be used when arguing against the All Blacks, the fact Ireland and Argentina still failed to do anything outside of pool play should be ignored for a bunch of random reasons (Argentina should be excused because they blew a lead? boo frickity hoo :wah:

Did I say that? No. I think I am talking to an clinical outpatient.

Any time a player plays for than 1 game in 6 days he / she is not going to be able to play to his / her potential. If a player plays 4 games in 14 days then his / her ability of performing at his / her peak level is further eroded. Now imagine a World Cup Squad having to do this. Not really fear when the opposition has opnly been playing 1 game a week is it?

Now please address my question: do you know Pedro Leal or Carlos Nieto?

Never seen one of his press conferences than

In other words, you don't like him.... Please grow up.

Pathetic.

Little sad boy, please address my post or say nothing you immature ignorant waste of space.

Tell me who the following play for... lets test your knowledge which appears to be as weak as Namibia's defense in the 2003 RWC.

Castrogiovanni, Avramovic, Sammy Naulu, Festcucio, Balan, Mike James, Ally Hogg, Leguizamon, Pedro Leal, Rodrigo Capo. They are all players known in the rugby world. They must be if a man in Brasil, me, knows who they are.

 

[Rugby_Cymru]

Yes, as was the rest of the England team integral to our success in the World Cup
[/b]

Oh, i don't deny that! Sorry, i wasn't insinuating that there were no other influencing factors amongst the squad barr Johnny.

 

[Melhor Time]

Ickon

Good post though I sense you don't see too much rugby from around the world? This coming out clear in your response regarding Scotland vs Italy.

True Legnd

From watching NZ's rugby matches thats how. They don't win by dominating territory as in camping in the opponents 22.

You want an example? Okay here is one I watched again thismorning on the way to work (on my laptop):

NZ Vs England 2006. NZ 4 tries. Try 1 - from NZ 22. Mauger try. Try 2 - Intercept from inside own half. Rokocoko try. try 3 - Lewis Moody knocks on the ball on the NZ 22. One phase latter Hayman scores 80 metres away. try 4 - Carter scores from half way following a missed touch kick from England.

So in other words all four tries were against the run of play. None were the rsult of sustained attack. England couldn-t shut down NZ, if they could have they would have won.

Juggernaut

Have you had a chance to take me up on my offer and analyze NZ play...

Mimic

RSA do this too, yes. I never said this is an All Black exclusive phenomenom. Rather I have argued, and indeed documented, that NZ are the best at it. Several teams can shut down NZ.

In terms of your All Black list, I now invite you to compare this to the France XV that NZ badly defeated in Lyon in November. Please take special note of the number of players who went on to win the 6 Nations for France. Unlike the All Blacks from this game in question, against Argentina, the number is very low.

. And I don't really see how your arguement works. [/b]

Precisely. You are in a hole and lost for ideas. Best to read it all again and to so so in an objective manner.

Also please abnswer quesitons or don-t bother responding. its a waste of everyones time.

 

[stormmaster1]

<div class='quotemain'>
Yes, as was the rest of the England team integral to our success in the World Cup
[/b]

Oh, i don't deny that! Sorry, i wasn't insinuating that there were no other influencing factors amongst the squad barr Johnny.
[/b][/quote]

No worries, we're always a little quick to judge when there's a hint of someone suggesting Johnny won the world cup on his own. A reflex from the bygone days of Johnnymania.

 

[shtove]

No worries, we're always a little quick to judge when there's a hint of someone suggesting Johnny won the world cup on his own. A reflex from the bygone days of Johnnymania.
[/b]

Didn't Jonny miss 2 DGs in the 03 final? But the Johnno-Dawson-Jonny axis for the killer score was magnificent. Still, it reminds you never to underestimate Australia - they had such a limited team in that tournament.

Got to say, I'm liking Mr Melhor's comments. And I like the idea of watching a game on the laptop in Brazil while commuting to work.

On "closing down" a team: my favourite recent example was Ireland v Australia in November - hammer them into their own 22 and don't turn over the ball in the first half, then pin them back with kicking in the second half. Can't see anyone doing the first part to the ABs. But the kicking thing is possible - although you've got to be really careful.

In November, France looked like they were throwing meat to the wolves every time they kicked it long - the AB back three (and Jerry Collins) just swallowed it up and came howling back for more. In the S14 semis the Sharks gave away the same kind of ball to the Blues in the third quarter, and Toeava made the most of it. Gay Guy had some good comments in another thread about SA's ability to pin the ABs back with kicking - but I think it involved dropping the "I-don't-kick-I-run" Habana.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotemain'>
Yes, as was the rest of the England team integral to our success in the World Cup
[/b]

Oh, i don't deny that! Sorry, i wasn't insinuating that there were no other influencing factors amongst the squad barr Johnny.
[/b][/quote]

Well I was looking at it logically, if it was just Jonny on his own as a one man team, he'd be out by the group stages.

Also, absolutely quality reply by our new Brazillian friend here, awesome stuff!

 

[Juggernaut]

Melhor,

Sorry mate but I havent the time to be analysing NZs games. Maybe this weekend. Dont worry I'll get back to you ASAP.

Right now, I'm concentrating on my studies (Exam in 2 weeks time).

But, great response from you anyway mate. I love reading all this kind of arguments and counters. It's refreshing.

 

[Ickon]

Ickon
Good post though I sense you don't see too much rugby from around the world? This coming out clear in your response regarding Scotland vs Italy.
[/b]

No! You don't get to see jack unless you have pay TV :cryy: in Australia, only If the Wallabies are playing. It's all Rugby League and Aussie Rules here, besides I play Rugby and League so I'm a busy man.

Good to see that rugby is getting some intrest in football crasy S. America. (Although there is nothing wrong with Football).

Im gonna call you the come back kid :lol:

 

[TRUE LEGND]

True Legnd

From watching NZ's rugby matches thats how. They don't win by dominating territory as in camping in the opponents 22.

You want an example? Okay here is one I watched again thismorning on the way to work (on my laptop):

NZ Vs England 2006. NZ 4 tries. Try 1 - from NZ 22. Mauger try. Try 2 - Intercept from inside own half. Rokocoko try. try 3 - Lewis Moody knocks on the ball on the NZ 22. One phase latter Hayman scores 80 metres away. try 4 - Carter scores from half way following a missed touch kick from England.

So in other words all four tries were against the run of play. None were the rsult of sustained attack. England couldn-t shut down NZ, if they could have they would have won.

[/b]

So analyzing NZ Vs England 2006 did you bother to Analise any of the other game's??? Or are you the man to judge a team on 1 performance??

So at the beginning of this year how did you think ABs got there RWC favorite's tag..By scoring from MISTAKE'S as you say? WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THE ALL BLACKS PLAYED THE LION'S?? Did you see that game? and did we win that from mistakes as you say?? What everyone around the world knows is ABs back line with the Likes of Dan Carter running the helm can strike havoc at any given space on the field, and for you to judge ABs performance on the 1 game sum's up your 1 eyed ability to watch all there games

1 question "Do you regularly watch All Black games before you go to work"?

 

[Wellycane]

Errors occur in any game at any time, and not only the ABs game. But I do understand that Melhor Time is pointing out the crucial errors made by the ABs, costly failing for them as all-year RWC favourites.

 

[Ripper]

<div class='quotemain'>

True Legnd

From watching NZ's rugby matches thats how. They don't win by dominating territory as in camping in the opponents 22.

You want an example? Okay here is one I watched again thismorning on the way to work (on my laptop):

NZ Vs England 2006. NZ 4 tries. Try 1 - from NZ 22. Mauger try. Try 2 - Intercept from inside own half. Rokocoko try. try 3 - Lewis Moody knocks on the ball on the NZ 22. One phase latter Hayman scores 80 metres away. try 4 - Carter scores from half way following a missed touch kick from England.

So in other words all four tries were against the run of play. None were the rsult of sustained attack. England couldn-t shut down NZ, if they could have they would have won.

[/b]

So analyzing NZ Vs England 2006 did you bother to Analise any of the other game's??? Or are you the man to judge a team on 1 performance??

So at the beginning of this year how did you think ABs got there RWC favorite's tag..By scoring from MISTAKE'S as you say? WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THE ALL BLACKS PLAYED THE LION'S?? Did you see that game? and did we win that from mistakes as you say?? What everyone around the world knows is ABs back line with the Likes of Dan Carter running the helm can strike havoc at any given space on the field, and for you to judge ABs performance on the 1 game sum's up your 1 eyed ability to watch all there games

1 question "Do you regularly watch All Black games before you go to work"?
[/b][/quote]

Of course, but only the games where we lost or didn't dominate, so he has a rolling loop of 5 or 6 from the last 4 years.

That explains why he considers Scott Hamilton and *name surpressed* regular All Blacks.

 

[TRUE LEGND]

Errors occur in any game at any time, and not only the ABs game. But I do understand that Melhor Time is pointing out the crucial errors made by the ABs, costly failing for them as all-year RWC favourites.
[/b]

No no... I'm getting at his point of "ABs scoring such tries based on other people's mistakes not making them themselves." and NZ Vs England 2006 wasn't a world cup year so he's referring to ABs the team not the World cup teams

And RIPPER we had the same problem with mel hore on another forum not understanding things. He considered NZ of poaching Sitivini and Joe Rocks at 1 stage there before. Till he finally came around to his senses

 

[Ripper]

What are you on about - we did poach Rocokoko. When he was 5 the NZRFU kidnapped his family and forced him to come up through the NZ Rugby system.

 

[Ripper]

In other words you don't actually know. You are guessing. [/b]

Preety good guess to make that when a team gets hammered at home, had their captain dropped (with international outcry) and have 2 co-coaches who hate each other they aren't exactly the hot tip... and it's funny, saying that the Italian scrum is the best in the World is also nothing but guess work, saying that the French changes now put them on even footing with the AB's is nothing more than guesswork.

Please provide proof that NZ were favourites instead of guessing. [/b]

What? :blink: Shouldn't be your job... your the one say they were favourites.. although some proof would be nice, I would love to see what monkey would say they were favourites with a 50 percent between Cups record and a bunch of series losses.

France had good wins over bpth Wales and Scotland actually. Better wins than NZ did over Argentina and Ireland. Are you learning yet?[/b]

Learning what? That the supposedly now Full Strength French team are now ahead of the All Blacks because they found beating Wales and Scotland easier to beat than the All Blacks found beating Argentina (in Benous Aires) and Ireland when they used 39 players? Since your such a rugby genius you would of course be able to tell me what happened the last time Wales faced the All Blacks...

So you don't know who Gonzalo Longo is. You are an idiot trying to chat rugby if you don't think a world class forward is a winger! The player I didn't list played opposite Longo. Can you work out who he is yet?

Hamilton actually came in late against Argentina to replace Sivivatu who had been named to start the match at Velez Sarsfeld. [/b]

And? Hamilton still played, Hamilton was still dropped along with Tuialili, Tuitopou and Gear. Thats 4... and just because they played more tests doesnt mean that the Argentinan team was anywhere near full strength. Henry used all 30 players in the Tri Nations that year, i'd say 5 players at most would be starters when the All Blacks take the field for the RWC Final.

You are not capable of evaluating the standard of other teams because you have your head up your ass. At least you have admitted it here. [/b]

I don't admit anything except that your full of ****. Maybe you should stop evaluating one or two games which you search for and anaylise the rest of the All Blacks games, you know the majority (and name me a team with a better record since the 2003 World Cup than the All Blacks)

I never swore... Christ you are incapable of reading. So Umaga and Mealamu were justified in slammign a player on his head, even though this is illegal and infact warrants large bans? Your lack of understanding of the international game is amazing. [/b]

Actually Mell you did "sware" - you know, when you said "crock of ****", not sure about Brazil or whatever god forsaken place your living at, but in most English Speaking places i've been too "****" is generally frowned upon and classified as a swear word.

And why ***** to me about an incident that happened 2 years ago - maybe you should e-mail the IRB or give BOD aN e-mail of support, see if you can get him to say sorry about the lies he told about the people who treated his injury.

Did I say that? No. I think I am talking to an clinical outpatient.

Any time a player plays for than 1 game in 6 days he / she is not going to be able to play to his / her potential. If a player plays 4 games in 14 days then his / her ability of performing at his / her peak level is further eroded. Now imagine a World Cup Squad having to do this. Not really fear when the opposition has opnly been playing 1 game a week is it?

Now please address my question: do you know Pedro Leal or Carlos Nieto?[/b]

Nah, can't say I do, don't really know any Portugese or Argentinan People personally though - are they nice blokes? (I assume they are friends of yours).

In other words, you don't like him.... Please grow up. [/b]

Watch a Press Conference... Please grow up

Little sad boy, please address my post or say nothing you immature ignorant waste of space.

Tell me who the following play for... lets test your knowledge which appears to be as weak as Namibia's defense in the 2003 RWC.

Castrogiovanni, Avramovic, Sammy Naulu, Festcucio, Balan, Mike James, Ally Hogg, Leguizamon, Pedro Leal, Rodrigo Capo. They are all players known in the rugby world. They must be if a man in Brasil, me, knows who they are.
[/b]

:zzz: I tell you who they play for, and you just say I use Google. Doesn't really sound like fun, ask Prestwick, he may play your little game and give you that ego trip you are so looking for.

 

[bobilycious]

Any time a player plays for than 1 game in 6 days he / she is not going to be able to play to his / her potential. If a player plays 4 games in 14 days then his / her ability of performing at his / her peak level is further eroded. Now imagine a World Cup Squad having to do this. Not really fear when the opposition has opnly been playing 1 game a week is it?[/b]

Argentina had women playing for them at the world cup as well :blink:

Castrogiovanni - Italy
Avramovic - umm.. California
Sammy Naulu - dnt have a clue
Festcucio - I know this one darn it ... i know his first name starts with C
Balan - dnt know this one either
Mike James umm... scotland?
Ally Hogg - Scotland
Leguizamon - Argentina
Pedro Leal - Portugal
Rodrigo Capo - Uzbekistan

I think thats pretty good for only ever watching all black or tri-nations games

 

[BigTen]

"...I never swore... Christ you are incapable of reading. So Umaga and Mealamu were justified in slammign a player on his head, even though this is illegal and infact warrants large bans? Your lack of understanding of the international game is amazing..." Melhor.

This is pretty close to one of the worse statements that I have seen.

Firstly you say that you have never sworn. This is a lie and has alreday been pointed out but then with your very next word you use a word that can easily be construed as a swear word especially in a highly religious country ... like Brazil.

And I can't ever remember Ripper ever saying that Umaga and Mealamu were justified in "slamming a player on his head". Firstly did you know that Ripper was actually on the judiciary that oversaw that incident and it was solely his decision to clear the two players? No? That is probably because that he wasn't and therefore had absolutely no control over the judgment.

The incident was a huge media beat-up. This is proven by the fact that the media went after Umaga and Mealamu was only ever mentioned as a footnote. It was a huge tactical mistake to go after Umaga as it shifted the focus from the Lion's weaknesses to something that had no bearing on the remaining two tests.

The judiciary, which is pretty bad even at the best of times, decided that neither player had a case to answer and as such were not punished. Should they have been punished? Probably, yes - I do not profess to claim that I am an expert in this area of rugby - and therefore can offer my opinion. Should Lote Tuquiri's "tackle" on Richie McCaw been punished? Well it was - I think that he got a one-week suspension. My opinion isn't really needed in that matter.

But anyway and then you accuse Ripper of a lack of understanding in regards to the international game - why? Because he merely disagrees with you!?

You raised some interesting points but you promptly lost all respect when you pulled out a list of rugby players and repeatidly requested Ripper to immediately identify all of them. I do not know all of the players that you listed - does that mean that I am not qualified to comment on anything related to international rugby?

 

[Melhor Time]

Ickon

Scotland vs Italy was superb. Here is a highlights package for your entertainment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sanBpNY0UWU

Ripper

I haven't bothered reading your post as there is no point. Why you ask?...

- You were 1 year old during the 1991 World Cup yet you think you know what was going on at the time.
- You were 5 at the 1995 World Cup yet you think you knew what was going on at the time.
- You were 9 during the 1999 World Cup and think you knew what was going on at the time. I don't know of any 9 year olds that can provide deteialed accounts of the abilites of a number of sides.
- I'll let you in for being 13 at the 2003 World Cup

- You don't know who Gonzalo Longo is yet you think you can pass judgement on Los Pumas. I certainly wouldn't think that a person who doesn't know who Jerry Collins is can think he / she is correct in his / her views of the All Blacks.

The ultimatium I have offered you on two occasions remains ignored. You have the choice of answering the list of well known players, from a range of countries, that I have listed or forever being considered an ignorant, immature poster. When considering this against your confidence in your opinions of previous World Cup's and a country in which you think the senior forward is a winger I don't really need to add anything else do I?

So analyzing NZ Vs England 2006 did you bother to Analise any of the other game's??? Or are you the man to judge a team on 1 performance??[/b]

No, its from all games I have watched which is almost every AB game.

So at the beginning of this year how did you think ABs got there RWC favorite's tag..By scoring from MISTAKE'S as you say? WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THE ALL BLACKS PLAYED THE LION'S?? Did you see that game? and did we win that from mistakes as you say?? What everyone around the world knows is ABs back line with the Likes of Dan Carter running the helm can strike havoc at any given space on the field, and for you to judge ABs performance on the 1 game sum's up your 1 eyed ability to watch all there games[/b]

I saw the Lions matches, yes. I have two on tape and can easily access the third on youtube, utorrent and a variety of other sources. Now you mention 'Carter running the helm', I don't dispute this at all. But you should pay attention to where he is doing this from. Look at his game against the Lions in the second test when he scored tries. Were the tries scored from 5 metres out after sustained NZ pressure involving rucks and mauls? No. Were they scored from insde the oppositions 22? No. He instead scored in the same manner as the 4 tries I have referenced from the 2006 game vs England. There is a clear pattern here. If you disagree then I challenge you to look over as much footage as yuo can and then get back to me.

If you do look over All Black tries you will notice a very high rate of tries scored from outside of the attacking zone. I challenge you do go over what footage you have and prove me wrong. I have already documented NZ's win over England and Argentina in 2006. Both games involved all tries scored from long range and were highly influenced by mistakes from the opposition. Now, I may be dreaming here but what do we assume would have happened ahd the opponents not made these mistakes? NZ weren't dominating possesion and so how could they have won?

1 question "Do you regularly watch All Black games before you go to work"?
[/b]

I generally read a book, learn French or watch some rugby on my way to work.

BigTen

I didn't swear actually. What I used nistead was a direct quote from our 17 year old friend ripper. You will notice the character I used is not orthodox. Why is this? because it is used as a reminder or simply to copy someone else's words as I did.

In terms of the spear tackles. I suggest you pay attention to how Ripper responded. He is of the view that BOD is a whinger and thus deserved everything he got. But he is happy with Tuqiri's punishment despite the tackle being barely as bad. Its clear that he is not commentating objectively. He has an agenda, his county. Now you can call it a media beat up all you like but the facts are facts and it was all caught on camera. The tackle was illegal and the culprits went unpunished while the victim had to have 6 months out of rugby. I have seen where the hands of the 2 All Balcks were and I believe they were guilty of serious misconduct. In their defence it appears possible that neither player was aware that the other player was lifting O'Driscoll. But unfortunately, for both players they went through with the action and the player was badly injured as a result.

allyoop

Good on you for trying to fill in the list. You have done well.

Castrogiovanni - Italy. Correct, but only partly.
Avramovic - umm.. California incorrect.
Sammy Naulu - dnt have a clue.
Festcucio - I know this one darn it ... i know his first name starts with C. Yes his name is Carlo.
Balan - dnt know this one either
Mike James umm... scotland? incorrect.
Ally Hogg - Scotland. correct
Leguizamon - Argentina correct
Pedro Leal - Portugal correct
Rodrigo Capo - Uzbekistan incorrect

All of these players play top flight rugby in France or England.

 

[shtove]

allyoop
Castrogiovanni - Italy. Correct, but only partly.
[/b]

Must be Argentina. The gauchos herd frontrow forwards down from the Andes every spring, wrap them in chains, and ship them to Europe in giant oil tankers.

Good to see a bit of plain talking about the BOD tackle, in the face of false outrage from AB supporters.

Can't say I agree Scotland v Italy was superb - shocking first 7 minutes, and then it got interesting. What it said about Italy was that they know how to close out a match (did it against Wales too). And Scotland aren't as bad as those 3 quick tries made them look. Interesting game.

The ABs score mostly from long distance, so to stop that you have to stop giving the ball away. I posted above about Ireland v Australia and closing down the opposition. What do you think?

But more recent stuff from the ABs shows they have the scrum, maul and maybe lineout to grind out tries.

And for f***'s sake, what's all this f***ing **** about f***ing swearing!