USA news & politics

[Welsh Exile]

Biden didnt campaign on open borders, but hos border policies were radically different to Trump and Obamas, as seen by the outcome numbers.

TBH, this is such low level knowledge I would expect anyone so passionate about this discussion to have, I dont think its worth getting into, you are well aware of Obamas reputation on border policy, and it being like for like (depending on which stance you take Obamas actions were far worse).

When I keep saying it's like people have only started looking into politics since 2016 this is what i mean, pre 2016 these border and crime policies were Democrats, they've only U turned the very day Don stood on that elevator.

Looking back at the 2016 campaign now is hilarious, I would have been one of the lefties screaming and laughing at his run, although I probably took him more serious than most mod campaign when he started overcoming 3 things a week that would have sunk anyone else's campaign.

One of the funniest things in politics history was watching TYT (yes i ised to consume that trash for a period) on election night, christ that was eye opening.

You’re the one making the claim. The claim by the way wasn’t specific about immigration it was all the GOP had to do was be Obama. Since then all I’ve done is ask you to clarify what you mean by that and now you’re outright refusing to even send me a link to an article that argues your point.

I’ve conceded there are similarities but when looking not just at one area but including all areas of society, they are vastly different.

I feel like I’ve been good faith here and haven’t deserved this kind of response to be honest. I’m just asking you to clarify what you mean and post some evidence to support your claims. If you don’t want to that’s fine.

 

[Welsh Exile]

What’s your thoughts on the DACA immigration policy @dirty harry? I had never heard of it to be honest.

 

[dirty harry]

You're the one making the claim. The claim by the way wasn't specific about immigration it was all the GOP had to do was be Obama. Since then all I've done is ask you to clarify what you mean by that and now you're outright refusing to even send

me a link to an article that argues your point.

I've conceded there are similarities but when looking not just at one area but including all areas of society, they are vastly different.

I feel like I've been good faith here and haven't deserved this kind of response to be honest. I'm just asking you to clarify what you mean and post some evidence to support your claims. If you don't want to that's fine.

The only reason we are still on the border, is because it should be the easiest one to agree on, because Trumps policy is just Obamas, whats the point moving further afield (although we have covered Healthcare, and a bit of crime) if the stone cold 90%+ identical policy, of a hard border voted for by Obama, aggressive deportations, ICE extended powers, increased deportation centres, and even the nickname 'deporter in cheif'.

If this is not an aligned policy, of both presidents then im afraid there is little else to discuss, and its not like we've gotten into the detail, but to not put Obama and Trump alongside each other on the easiest element, well then I dont trust your being honest.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The only reason we are still on the border, is because it should be the easiest one to agree on, because Trumps policy is just Obamas, whats the point moving further afield (although we have covered Healthcare, and a bit of crime) if the stone cold 90%+ identical policy, of a hard border voted for by Obama, aggressive deportations, ICE extended powers, increased deportation centres, and even the nickname 'deporter in cheif'.

If this is not an aligned policy, of both presidents then im afraid there is little else to discuss, and its not like we've gotten into the detail, but to not put Obama and Trump alongside each other on the easiest element, well then I dont trust your being honest.

It's because that conversation would require a bit of nuance.

What's your views (and Trumps) on DACA?

 

[dirty harry]

It's because that conversation would require a bit of nuance.

What's your views on DACA?

Doesn't go anywhere near far enough, I personally would like to see an amnesty of some sort.

Id still offer the 'dob yourself in for dosh' route (not official name hahaha) but id offer an amnesty for everyone who wanted to stay, who had been in the USA since the amnesty day.

It would require a few steps, ID, registry, maybe citizenship course, and I would still be abrasive at the border, but ultimately illegal immigrants in the USA are like guns, theres just too many, its too complicated, its too ingrained in their history, the best thing to do is put as many safeguards in as possible to try to make the problem not escalate, and hopefully over time it gets better!

Im not a luvvie when it comes to immigration, but I am a realist and empathetic.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Doesn't go anywhere near far enough, I personally would like to see an amnesty of some sort.

Id still offer the 'dob yourself in for dosh' route (not official name hahaha) but id offer an amnesty for everyone who wanted to stay, who had been in the USA since the amnesty day.

It would require a few steps, ID, registry, maybe citizenship course, and I would still be abrasive at the border, but ultimately illegal immigrants in the USA are like guns, theres just too many, its too complicated, its too ingrained in their history, the best thing to do is put as many safeguards in as possible to try to make the problem not escalate, and hopefully over time it gets better!

Im not a luvvie when it comes to immigration, but I am a realist and empathetic.

But it’s an example of an immigration policy where Obama and Trump we’re not aligned at all so therefore not identical.

 

[dirty harry]

But it's an example of an immigration policy where Obama and Trump we're not aligned at all so therefore not identical.

DACA is still in play, Trump hasn't eradicated it, infact he has made numerous comments about DACA recipients not having to worry, and not wanting to deport educated skilled workers who were in the DACA program. He also said it would be a path to citizenship in 10 years ir so...

Trump has sent incredibly mixed messaging regarding DACA, as he has a number of things, whats convenient to say in front of one crowd might not be the same in front of another crowd. I personally dont think he wants to terminate DACA, his appeals have been lazy and looks like posturing, what he does want IMO is a restructure that gives him the option to protect skilled workers and deport unskilled workers.

But I give you, rhetoric on DACA has been negative if not mixed at times, so they are aligned 90%, as i said earlier.

Edit: in fact even this is an Obama tactic, talk tough on policy and then when half heartedly tried to implement it blame others for not being able to get it through, I think he did similar with the modernization act during his 2nd term

 

[Welsh Exile]

DACA is still in play, Trump hasn't eradicated it, infact he has made numerous comments about DACA recipients not having to worry, and not wanting to deport educated skilled workers who were in the DACA program. He also said it would be a path to citizenship in 10 years ir so...

Trump has sent incredibly mixed messaging regarding DACA, as he has a number of things, whats convenient to say in front of one crowd might not be the same in front of another crowd. I personally dont think he wants to terminate DACA, his appeals have been lazy and looks like posturing, what he does want IMO is a restructure that gives him the option to protect skilled workers and deport unskilled workers.

But I give you, rhetoric on DACA has been negative if not mixed at times, so they are aligned 90%, as i said earlier.

It’s still in play in spite of Trump not because of him. He literally tried to end it in 2017. Trump also ended DAPA, Obama's related program for parents of Dreamers.

Looks to me they were at opposite ends of the spectrum on this one.

 

[Welsh Exile]

What about building a big **** off wall? I seem to remember Trump saying something about that and getting Mexico to pay for it. Can't remember Obama talking about, let alone building, a wall.

 

[dirty harry]

It's still in play in spite of Trump not because of him. He literally tried to end it in 2017. Trump also ended DAPA, Obama's related program for parents of Dreamers.

Looks to me they were at opposite ends of the spectrum on this one.

Not at all, infact thats another similarity of Obama and Trump. DAPA was posturing, Obama knew it wasn't going anywhere, and it was never going to be implemented during his term, very Trump esque.

And to be on the opposing end to DACA you would have to have eradicated it, or is fighting to eradicate it, not send mixed signals, tell the kids they'd be fine, and talk about restructure.

But lets say I give you DACA, they are 90% aligned on the border no?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Not at all, infact thats another similarity of Obama and Trump. DAPA was posturing, Obama knew it wasn't going anywhere, and it was never going to be implemented during his term, very Trump esque.

And to be on the opposing end to DACA you would have to have eradicated it, or is fighting to eradicate it, not send mixed signals, tell the kids they'd be fine, and talk about restructure.

But lets say I give you DACA, they are 90% aligned on the border no?

What about the Wall? Is that another 10% off?

 

[dirty harry]

What about building a big **** off wall? I seem to remember Trump saying something about that and getting Mexico to pay for it. Can't remember Obama talking, let alone building, a wall.

He voted for a fence hahahahaha Trump built a fence, well technically he replaced and reinforced the fence that was already partially there. That is 100% alignment.

Come on man, your better than this

 

[Welsh Exile]

He voted for a fence hahahahaha Trump built a fence, well technically he replaced and reinforced the fence that was already partially there. That is 100% alignment.

Come on man, your better than this

It would be super helpful if you mentioned specifically what you’re talking about rather than just saying it. This is why I keep asking for names, links, articles or just any evidence really.

 

[dirty harry]

It would be super helpful if you mentioned specifically what you're talking about rather than just saying it. This is why I keep asking for names, links, articles or just any evidence really.

Ive mentioned the secure fence act a number of times, Obama and all major dems all voted for it.

Infact during his 2 terms Obama spent billions on militarising and upgrading the fence, using new technology, putting a record number of 'boots on the ground' and allowing far more power to ICE.

You can go research all of this, its all pretty simple to find.

Serious question, what are your generic thoughts on Obamas presidency?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Ive mentioned the secure fence act a number of times, Obama and all major dems all voted for it.

Infact during his 2 terms Obama spent billions on militarising and upgrading the fence, using new technology, putting a record number of 'boots on the ground' and allowing far more power to ICE.

You can go research all of this, its all pretty simple to find.

Serious question, what are your generic thoughts on Obamas presidency?

So you’re talking about the secure fence act? Thanks. A name is always helpful as it’s something I can google and look into. I didn’t see you mention that by its name so apologies if I missed it.

So this was initially prior to him being president?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Ive mentioned the secure fence act a number of times, Obama and all major dems all voted for it.

Infact during his 2 terms Obama spent billions on militarising and upgrading the fence, using new technology, putting a record number of 'boots on the ground' and allowing far more power to ICE.

You can go research all of this, its all pretty simple to find.

Serious question, what are your generic thoughts on Obamas presidency?

Sorry, didn’t see your question there. Hard to say, pretty good on the whole. Not great foreign policy but on the whole pretty good. But the bar has been lowered so much with Trump generally being a threat to democracy by constantly saying the election process is rigged and staging insurrections so with that in mind Obama was decent. He gave the impression he knew what he was talking about, spoke well generally, looked to be inclusive with allies. I’d give him a 7/10.

 

[Welsh Exile]

This is a good read Harry.

Remarks by the President in Address to the Nation on Immigration

Cross Hall 8:01 P.M. EST THE PRESIDENT: My fellow Americans, tonight, I’d like to talk with you about immigration.

www.google.com

 

[Welsh Exile]

Lastly, I’m trying to understand why you would say that all the GOP have to do to ensure electoral victories is be Obama. I’m like, the blueprint is already there. It’s trumps blueprint and he’s crafted it very well so I don’t know why you would say he just has to be Obama. Then I thought it supports your general view that all politicians are essentially the same and I guess that makes sense.

Do you think Obama and Trump were ideologically aligned? Do you think they cared about the same things?

 

[dirty harry]

Sorry, didn't see your question there. Hard to say, pretty good on the whole. Not great foreign policy but on the whole pretty good. But the bar has been lowered so much with Trump generally being a threat to democracy by constantly saying the election process is rigged and staging insurrections so with that in mind Obama was decent. He gave the impression he knew what he was talking about, spoke well generally, looked to be inclusive with allies. I'd give him a 7/10.

I think this is where we really differ, I dont understand how Obama would receive anything other than 5/10 being very generous, when you boil down Obamas terms to outcomes, it reads like a **** show! Plus when he attended the Celtic Manor for the summit I was blocked from using the gym and driving range for like 10 days... twat!

 

[dirty harry]

Lastly, I'm trying to understand why you would say that all the GOP have to do to ensure electoral victories is be Obama. I'm like, the blueprint is already there. It's trumps blueprint and he's crafted it very well so I don't know why you would say he just has to be Obama. Then I thought it supports your general view that all politicians are essentially the same and I guess that makes sense.

Do you think Obama and Trump were ideologically aligned? Do you think they cared about the same things?

For the 100th time, thats a claim ive never made, why you persist with that narrative i dont know, its not an honest representation of whats been discussed.

Trump and Obama have huge swathes in common, Trumps campaign I guarantee took plenty from Obama. I am truly shocked that this wouldnt be blatantly obvious, both outsiders, similar messaging of change, use of social media, and using online grassroots movements, populist messaging, charismatic leaders, both threatened to disrupt the establishment and norms...