Wales (The Gatland returns thread)

[Derpus]

i guess we dont know they didn't try...but yeah, its a proven route to the AB's job and razzor has reportedly been told he needs international experience

ive seen a few kiwis making comment that theyre fine with a future AB's coach going with someone like Wales or Scotland, japan etc...but england, SA or aussie are just too much of a rival, kiwis dont mind the welsh as a rule

Razor could easily be Deans 2.0. Certainly excelled with the Crusaders but, at the same time, have they really been challenged?

Only two half decent sides to compete with in the last 6 years in the Lions and Blues. Not at the same time, either.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Razor could easily be Deans 2.0. Certainly excelled with the Crusaders but, at the same time, have they really been challenged?

Only two half decent sides to compete with in the last 6 years in the Lions and Blues. Not at the same time, either.

i dont think anyone is saying he is nailed on to win the RWC if he had been given the AB's job, just that he has performed at the two levels below, the same comps that feed to the AB's, so he's go more tangible qualifications that fozzie...which would matter less if the AB's we're doing well....but there has been a noticeable drop in lots aspects, result the most obvious

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Razor could easily be Deans 2.0. Certainly excelled with the Crusaders but, at the same time, have they really been challenged?

Only two half decent sides to compete with in the last 6 years in the Lions and Blues. Not at the same time, either.

Agreed. Robertson has had great success with the Crusaders, but a monkey (and perhaps even Gatland) could have coached that Crusaders squad to their 6 ***les.

I’m not saying that Robertson isn’t a good coach, and I’m not saying that he wouldn’t be a good international coach, but people are way too stoked on him just because he’s a charismatic and likeable guy whose had some successes at franchise level with what is probably the most talented squad on the planet. Give him that Wales squad and he would inevitably struggle far more. He may well turn out alright, but it’s far from a given.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Agreed. Robertson has had great success with the Crusaders, but a monkey (and perhaps even Gatland) could have coached that Crusaders squad to their 6 ***les.

I’m not saying that Robertson isn’t a good coach, and I’m not saying that he wouldn’t be a good international coach, but people are way too stoked on him just because he’s a charismatic and likeable guy whose had some successes at franchise level with what is probably the most talented squad on the planet. Give him that Wales squad and he would inevitably struggle far more. He may well turn out alright, but it’s far from a given.

thats just not true, Blackadder had an even more impressive squad, including Reid, mccaw and DC and didn't win anything

if it was kiwi fans that were saying razor needed to go and coach another international team as a stepping stone to the AB's job we'd get bagged for being arrogant, most of us are saying if he's ready for any international job then he might as well do the AB's because we're no better than other Tier 1 teams

 

[Derpus]

I don't really buy that he needs international experience to qualify for the AB job but I completely believe NZR being arrogant enough to demand it.

I think he really just needs a bit of variety on his CV - but regardless someone will roll the dice on him.

 

[Booboobang]

Agreed. Robertson has had great success with the Crusaders, but a monkey (and perhaps even Gatland) could have coached that Crusaders squad to their 6 ***les.

I’m not saying that Robertson isn’t a good coach, and I’m not saying that he wouldn’t be a good international coach, but people are way too stoked on him just because he’s a charismatic and likeable guy whose had some successes at franchise level with what is probably the most talented squad on the planet. Give him that Wales squad and he would inevitably struggle far more. He may well turn out alright, but it’s far from a given.

The thing with this theory is it actually perfectly suits him to modern international rugby where selecting a coherent squad and the best players essential. That crusaders squad might be amazing, but it wasnt particularly performing before he got there, and at this point most of the guys in that team have been turned over multiple times with him handling the recruitment of the fresh faces who seem to step in without missing a beat.

 

[Derpus]

The thing with this theory is it actually perfectly suits him to modern international rugby where selecting a coherent squad and the best players essential. That crusaders squad might be amazing, but it wasnt particularly performing before he got there, and at this point most of the guys in that team have been turned over multiple times with him handling the recruitment of the fresh faces who seem to step in without missing a beat.

This has always been a feature of the Crusaders system and the Crusaders success is more about their systems than any one person.

I'd argue Blackadder is actually the outlier that proves the rule. He's basically the only unsuccessful Crusaders coach and I suspect that had a lot more to do with him than it did the systems under him.

 

[Welsh Exile]

6 ***les is incredible no matter how you spin it. Even if you say his squad was miles above everyone else keeping a squad motivated year on year to win is pretty special. Didn’t Crusaders go through a pretty barren spell before him as well? Now you can say he was lucky and timed it right by having the right players at the right time but at some point you’ve got to give the man some massive props. Who else is doing that.

The last time I watched a super rugby season properly the Blues were the best team over the course of the season but the Crusaders done them in the final, another sign he’s top drawer imo. Especially after all the success to keep pulling it off when it matters.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

This has always been a feature of the Crusaders system and the Crusaders success is more about their systems than any one person.

I'd argue Blackadder is actually the outlier that proves the rule. He's basically the only unsuccessful Crusaders coach and I suspect that had a lot more to do with him than it did the systems under him.

theyve only had 5 coaches (including people like deans and wayne smith, the latter one of the great rugby coaches of our time) so its hard to identify outliers, and the reality is...blackadder wasn't that bad, still made finals etc so he wasn't ******** the bed...its that final run that the great coaches have that good ones dont, turning finals appearances into ***les

edid: it sensored T I T in "t i t l e s"

 

[Bada-Bing!]

But there’s no doubt coaching a northern hemisphere international team is a step up and totally different to coaching a Super Rugby side regardless of how you look at it.

There is no guarantee Robertson will be successful as an international coach. The skill and mind sets of being different and Robertson would need time to adapt.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

i dont think anyone is saying he is nailed on to win the RWC if he had been given the AB's job, just that he has performed at the two levels below, the same comps that feed to the AB's, so he's go more tangible qualifications that fozzie...which would matter less if the AB's we're doing well....but there has been a noticeable drop in lots aspects, result the most obvious

Actually the vast majority of people shouting their heads off in support of razor one hundred percent think there is absolutely no way the all blacks wouldn't win the World Cup if he was the coach. Just read the thousands of comments on any stuff article. You might see some more rational views somewhere, but they are not the norm.

thats just not true, Blackadder had an even more impressive squad, including Reid, mccaw and DC and didn't win anything

if it was kiwi fans that were saying razor needed to go and coach another international team as a stepping stone to the AB's job we'd get bagged for being arrogant, most of us are saying if he's ready for any international job then he might as well do the AB's because we're no better than other Tier 1 teams

That's because Blackadder was a terrible coach for most of that time.

Although, with those amazing players and some good assistants (particularly mauger being given a larger role in attack) in his last year in charge, blackadder did more like as should be expected.

Which also meant razor adopted a strong side.

Razor did still win when the new players came through, so there is no doubt he is a good coach. But how good? Especially considering how important the maul and set piece have been (which you can thank Ryan for) and how many games have been rescued by mounga.

Still, the main job of a head coach at the highest level is to get the teams mentality right imo, and I don't think you can doubt he is good at that.

Would I choose him over a Joseph brown combo? Not sure. Will be interesting to see if brown stays loyal to Joseph or just agrees to join any coaching team. I think he could work well with razor.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Actually the vast majority of people shouting their heads off in support of razor one hundred percent think there is absolutely no way the all blacks wouldn't win the World Cup if he was the coach. Just read the thousands of comments on any stuff article. You might see some more rational views somewhere, but they are not the norm.


That's because Blackadder was a terrible coach for most of that time.

Although, with those amazing players and some good assistants (particularly mauger being given a larger role in attack) in his last year in charge, blackadder did more like as should be expected.

Which also meant razor adopted a strong side.

Razor did still win when the new players came through, so there is no doubt he is a good coach. But how good? Especially considering how important the maul and set piece have been (which you can thank Ryan for) and how many games have been rescued by mounga.

Still, the main job of a head coach at the highest level is to get the teams mentality right imo, and I don't think you can doubt he is good at that.

Would I choose him over a Joseph brown combo? Not sure. Will be interesting to see if brown stays loyal to Joseph or just agrees to join any coaching team. I think he could work well with razor.

thats where we're going to have to disagree....i do not believe the stuff commenters are the norm or the majority, even facebook comments aren't as extreme as stuff comments, talking to actual people in the pub or sideline and i get a different vibe...still in favour of razor, but more a case of "he's done enough to earn a shot"

and we credit ryan for shaping up the crusaders pack...but razor brought him in and building a good team a a key part of a good coach

I think the calls for razor get louder just because its so jarring to people how fozzie still has a job, we say razor has "only" won NPC and super....fozzie hasn't even done that...not even close and has an even worse record with the AB's

 

[Umaga's Witness]

thats where we're going to have to disagree....i do not believe the stuff commenters are the norm or the majority, even facebook comments aren't as extreme as stuff comments, talking to actual people in the pub or sideline and i get a different vibe...still in favour of razor, but more a case of "he's done enough to earn a shot"

and we credit ryan for shaping up the crusaders pack...but razor brought him in and building a good team a a key part of a good coach

I think the calls for razor get louder just because its so jarring to people how fozzie still has a job, we say razor has "only" won NPC and super....fozzie hasn't even done that...not even close and has an even worse record with the AB's

Well it's hard to know what the majority think. You have thousands of commenters on a newspaper article, but they are self selecting as the ones with strong views I guess, vs the twenty or so youve talked to at the pub who might represent more normal people but the sample size is much less. Anyway I much prefer your interpretation. If you just take this forum it's probably 50 50 between reasoned views (still generally in favour of razor over fizzle) and impassioned idolization of razor that at times borders on insanity.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Well it's hard to know what the majority think. You have thousands of commenters on a newspaper article, but they are self selecting as the ones with strong views I guess, vs the twenty or so youve talked to at the pub who might represent more normal people but the sample size is much less. Anyway I much prefer your interpretation. If you just take this forum it's probably 50 50 between reasoned views (still generally in favour of razor over fizzle) and impassioned idolization of razor that at times borders on insanity.

a few more than 20, im on another more NZ focused forum and that is definitely in favour of razor but still not a case of all our problems will be fixed with him. I would say that even a lot of those that are militant razor fans...its more a case of it would be better than fozzie...rather than make that one change and we beat everyone easily

i may have missed the comment on here saying razor is so good he will win the RWC easily

 

[Reiser99]

Apparently Gatland's appointment is not a quick fix but part of a long term strategy...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think it’s a brilliant idea for Wales. Provides short term motivation, got the opportunity to shake things up and he does well in short tournaments to fire up the squad.

I’m guessing they will want him to recruit a long term coach after this WC so maybe the 2 year deal is to see him through to other appointment (and then maybe he moves upstairs.)

Wonder if Eddie will be the next lions coach then

 

[Welsh Exile]

But there’s no doubt coaching a northern hemisphere international team is a step up and totally different to coaching a Super Rugby side regardless of how you look at it.

There is no guarantee Robertson will be successful as an international coach. The skill and mind sets of being different and Robertson would need time to adapt.

This goes without saying. Clearly international rugby is a different kettle of fish and there’s no guarantees on anything but you take that risk even with a coach who has international experience so it goes without saying. Robertson could obviously be a flop but when you look at the wealth of comments from players inside and outside of NZ about his man management, plus his winning record etc, leads me to think he’d be absolutely fine. Wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been wrong though.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

As a neutral it is always infuriating that not once did Pivac have the confidence to try and remotely replicate flowing Scarlets play. His selection of Biggar and Priestland seemed extremely conservative and at odds with the style with which he had success (although he did appear to increase points per game scored and conceded?). It felt like he was a Gatland tribute act rather than his own man. I hope Pivac is considered for a return to the Scarlets, because boy do they need a change.

I presume Gatland chose to leave, when he left. So it's hard to see that deep down he'll have the same motivation. I don't expect a grand return to form for Wales, but he is still (just) in his 50s, so maybe he has one last hurrah in him.

 

[Welsh Exile]

As a neutral it is always infuriating that not once did Pivac have the confidence to try and remotely replicate flowing Scarlets play. His selection of Biggar and Priestland seemed extremely conservative and at odds with the style with which he had success (although he did appear to increase points per game scored and conceded?). It felt like he was a Gatland tribute act rather than his own man. I hope Pivac is considered for a return to the Scarlets, because boy do they need a change.

I presume Gatland chose to leave, when he left. So it's hard to see that deep down he'll have the same motivation. I don't expect a grand return to form for Wales, but he is still (just) in his 50s, so maybe he has one last hurrah in him.

I think we saw signs of it in his first season then he completely backtracked. I think it was at that point he probably lost a bit of respect from a lot of the players.

Shaun Edwards said the other day he doesn’t know why Pivac was hired in there first place and that Gatland (and him) should’ve had their contracts extended. Obviously not sure how that panned out in reality but there was definitely the feeling at the time that we needed to move on from Gatland. Priestland and Cuthbert were wild selections but to be fair Cuthbert wil probably be in and around the squad under Gatland but Adams will rightfully be ahead of him under Gats. Will be interesting to see what he does with some players.

He was asked if his legacy is on the line taking the Wales job and he said definitely which is what makes it exciting. He’s definitely still got the desire, whether he’s still got it is another question. We’ll do a lot better under him than Pivac but long term he’s not the answer. There’s only one breakdancing coach on this planet who can save us, hopefully we can go in for him next year.

 

[Tallshort]

So Gatland for the Lions 2025 then?