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Wales Tour of Argentina

Welsh Exile

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Obviously don’t know if this is 100% going ahead but the word is that we’ll try and get them over here if needs must. What are your thoughts on how Pivac should approach this. More development focussed or give the fringe players some game time? Personally I always like to try and blood new players more on these tours (depending on opposition) but the 2 key areas we need to address, in my opinion, is Hooker and 2nd row. Owens and AWJ are extremely unlikely to make the WC (you never know with AWJ though) and I think if you took those 2 out of our team and had to play a World Cup tomorrow I think we’d struggle to get to a semi final if I’m honest so we really need to pull something out of the bag in the next 2 years in those 2 positions in my opinion. I’d go for something like:

Loose Head - Domachowski, Carre, Nicky Smith
Hooker - Dee, Ifan Phillips, Dewi Lake
Tight Head - Brown, Lewis, WillGriff John
Lock - Morgan Jones, Carter, Hill, Seb Davies and maybe Christ Tshiunza?
Back Row - Harrison Keddie, Jac Morgan, Ellis Jenkins, Moriarty, Wainwright, Carwyn Tuipulotu, Basham. I don’t think Basham will make it back from injury nor do I think Carwyn will go but you never know.

Backs

Scrum Half - Hardy, Ruben Morgan Williams, Dane Blacker
Fly Half - Jarrod Evans, Ioan Lloyd, Sam Costelow
Centers - Tompkins, Watkin, Johnny Williams, Kieran Williams
Wingers - Giles, Ashton Hewitt, Owen Lane, LRZ
Full Back - Amos, Protheroe, Jonah Holmes.

There’s a few other centers I’d like to look at like Max Llewelyn, Ben Thomas, Joe Hawkin and Aneurin Owen but looking to the World Cup we need to develop Watkin, Johnny Williams and Tompkins so gone with them and Kieran Williams as I think Kieran has shown the most promise and consistency this year. I’m probably forgetting a few key players. I’m assuming, like Basham, that McLeod won’t be fit in time.

Thoughts?
 

MikeTheNative

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Has Christ Tshiunza actually played for Exeter yet? I think it's a step too far for him as well as Tuiplotu who has only played twice off the bench and I don't think that was longer than 10 minutes a time.
Ben Thomas has hasn't looked out of place at all at pro level and has had some really nice touches. I do agree Johnny Williams is probably the future at 12 so should be given maximum time. I don't see Sheedy going on the Lions so he probably goes on the other hand I can see LRZ going. Like to see Ashton Hewitt get a cap as he's been really good the past year for Dragons.
 

Welsh Exile

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Has Christ Tshiunza actually played for Exeter yet? I think it's a step too far for him as well as Tuiplotu who has only played twice off the bench and I don't think that was longer than 10 minutes a time.
Ben Thomas has hasn't looked out of place at all at pro level and has had some really nice touches. I do agree Johnny Williams is probably the future at 12 so should be given maximum time. I don't see Sheedy going on the Lions so he probably goes on the other hand I can see LRZ going. Like to see Ashton Hewitt get a cap as he's been really good the past year for Dragons.

Yeah I don’t think Christ has even been on their bench so extremely unlikely. Same goes for Carwyn.
 

MikeTheNative

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Yeah I don’t think Christ has even been on their bench so extremely unlikely. Same goes for Carwyn.
I was going to say I think James Ryan made his debut for Ireland before playing for Leinster but I still don't think it's a great idea.
 

Welsh Exile

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I was going to say I think James Ryan made his debut for Ireland before playing for Leinster but I still don't think it's a great idea.

It’s probably one of many reasons I’m not a Wales selector even though I send them emails daily to give me a job
 

TRF_Olyy

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Has Christ Tshiunza actually played for Exeter yet?
Is he still eligible for Wales?
I was under the impression that eligibility via residence ends as soon as you leave the country, if you've not been "captured" (might have changed, though? I remember Tim Visser wanted to play for England then when he moved from Newcastle the Edinburgh they were like....yeah, sorry, you aren't eligible for England anymore)
 

Welsh Exile

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Is he still eligible for Wales?
I was under the impression that eligibility via residence ends as soon as you leave the country, if you've not been "captured" (might have changed, though? I remember Tim Visser wanted to play for England then when he moved from Newcastle the Edinburgh they were like....yeah, sorry, you aren't eligible for England anymore)

He was in Wales for about 10 years wasn’t he? Between like 9 and 19 or something like that. I wasn’t aware that he was eligible to play for any other country than Wales, or Congo, his pace of birth but it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been wrong.
 

TRF_Olyy

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He was in Wales for about 10 years wasn’t he? Between like 9 and 19 or something like that. I wasn’t aware that he was eligible to play for any other country than Wales, or Congo, his pace of birth but it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been wrong.
Aye, but he qualified for Wales through residency, not parentage, so not sure if him leaving Wales cancels out the years lived there

Apparently he's eligible for Congo, France, England and Wales - he's in England u20s at the moment

 

Welsh Exile

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Aye, but he qualified for Wales through residency, not parentage, so not sure if him leaving Wales cancels out the years lived there

Apparently he's eligible for Congo, France, England and Wales - he's in England u20s at the moment


Oh ****, I didn’t know he was eligible for France as well nor did I know he’s in the England under 20s either. S**t.

Understandable though. I’m going to put that down to him doing a Moriarty and taking the opportunity. Hopefully he still has ambitions of making the 2023 Wales WC squad.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Oh ****, I didn’t know he was eligible for France as well nor did I know he’s in the England under 20s either. S**t.

Understandable though. I’m going to put that down to him doing a Moriarty and taking the opportunity. Hopefully he still has ambitions of making the 2023 Wales WC squad.
Aye, he seems to have his sights set on Wales - it's quite rare that you see players turn out for u20s nations that they don't currently live in (as, for the u20 6N, you can play for where you live even if you're not eligible, hence Dombrandt playing for Wales in the 6N but then not being able to in the junior world cup), so I don't think it can be read in to too much
 

Welsh Exile

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Aye, he seems to have his sights set on Wales - it's quite rare that you see players turn out for u20s nations that they don't currently live in (as, for the u20 6N, you can play for where you live even if you're not eligible, hence Dombrandt playing for Wales in the 6N but then not being able to in the junior world cup), so I don't think it can be read in to too much

Well I think the smart choice, just in case, is to do as I suggest and take him to Argentina and cap the lad.
 

MikeTheNative

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England U20 had a camp for a few weeks, I understand why he choose to attend/play. WRU still seem confident that he will play for Wales u20s in the summer.
 

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Obviously don’t know if this is 100% going ahead but the word is that we’ll try and get them over here if needs must. What are your thoughts on how Pivac should approach this. More development focussed or give the fringe players some game time? Personally I always like to try and blood new players more on these tours (depending on opposition) but the 2 key areas we need to address, in my opinion, is Hooker and 2nd row. Owens and AWJ are extremely unlikely to make the WC (you never know with AWJ though) and I think if you took those 2 out of our team and had to play a World Cup tomorrow I think we’d struggle to get to a semi final if I’m honest so we really need to pull something out of the bag in the next 2 years in those 2 positions in my opinion. I’d go for something like:

Loose Head - Domachowski, Carre, Nicky Smith
Hooker - Dee, Ifan Phillips, Dewi Lake
Tight Head - Brown, Lewis, WillGriff John
Lock - Morgan Jones, Carter, Hill, Seb Davies and maybe Christ Tshiunza?
Back Row - Harrison Keddie, Jac Morgan, Ellis Jenkins, Moriarty, Wainwright, Carwyn Tuipulotu, Basham. I don’t think Basham will make it back from injury nor do I think Carwyn will go but you never know.

Backs

Scrum Half - Hardy, Ruben Morgan Williams, Dane Blacker
Fly Half - Jarrod Evans, Ioan Lloyd, Sam Costelow
Centers - Tompkins, Watkin, Johnny Williams, Kieran Williams
Wingers - Giles, Ashton Hewitt, Owen Lane, LRZ
Full Back - Amos, Protheroe, Jonah Holmes.

There’s a few other centers I’d like to look at like Max Llewelyn, Ben Thomas, Joe Hawkin and Aneurin Owen but looking to the World Cup we need to develop Watkin, Johnny Williams and Tompkins so gone with them and Kieran Williams as I think Kieran has shown the most promise and consistency this year. I’m probably forgetting a few key players. I’m assuming, like Basham, that McLeod won’t be fit in time.

Thoughts?
Agree with a lot there. Deffo would like to see Lake get in and around the squad. He looked like a real talent at the under20 World Cup in Argentina. While I am a massive fan of Dee (I really rate him highly actually) I kinda see Lake being a 10 year plus hoover for Wales, so the sooner he's involved the better as far as I'm concerned.

Would love to see us cap Christ Tshiunza. We do struggle to produce 'athletic' locks and what with England sniffing him up and down, I'd like to get him signed, sealed and delivered to the WRU ASAP.

Morgan, Tuipulotu and maybe a couple of the young O's backrows would offer us a few choices in that area as Tips, Tobes et al edge closer to their retirement, so I'd love to see them get some time in the squad.

Pretty much on point with your backs too... whatever happened to the young scrummy at the O's, was it Harri Morgan? Heard all kinds of greatness about him a couple of years ago but nothing much since then.
 

bushytop

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Aye, he seems to have his sights set on Wales - it's quite rare that you see players turn out for u20s nations that they don't currently live in (as, for the u20 6N, you can play for where you live even if you're not eligible, hence Dombrandt playing for Wales in the 6N but then not being able to in the junior world cup), so I don't think it can be read in to too much
As far as I know, he is eligible for Wales, England and France. He was eligible for England while in Wales, so I'd imagine the same applies for Wales now he is a student in England.
 

Welsh Exile

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Agree with a lot there. Deffo would like to see Lake get in and around the squad. He looked like a real talent at the under20 World Cup in Argentina. While I am a massive fan of Dee (I really rate him highly actually) I kinda see Lake being a 10 year plus hoover for Wales, so the sooner he's involved the better as far as I'm concerned.

Would love to see us cap Christ Tshiunza. We do struggle to produce 'athletic' locks and what with England sniffing him up and down, I'd like to get him signed, sealed and delivered to the WRU ASAP.

Morgan, Tuipulotu and maybe a couple of the young O's backrows would offer us a few choices in that area as Tips, Tobes et al edge closer to their retirement, so I'd love to see them get some time in the squad.

Pretty much on point with your backs too... whatever happened to the young scrummy at the O's, was it Harri Morgan? Heard all kinds of greatness about him a couple of years ago but nothing much since then.
Yeah, don’t know what’s happened to Harri Morgan. In fact totally forgot about him until you just mentioned him. Assume he’s had injury issues or something?
 

bushytop

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Yeah, don’t know what’s happened to Harri Morgan. In fact totally forgot about him until you just mentioned him. Assume he’s had injury issues or something?
Yeah probably, seemed a real bright kid with a big future ahead of him... hopefully that's still the case.
 

MikeTheNative

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Played a bit at the start of the current season not seen him since. It's Morgan-Williams who has been getting a decent amount of time for the ospreys recently.
 

dullonien

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I'd love to see Olly Griffiths make it too, but he returned from injury for the Dragons' victory vs Glasgow only to get injured again almost immediately! Every time he get's a run of a few games he looks like a star ready to be unleashed, praying he can finally fulfil his potential at some stage.
 

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Well I think the smart choice, just in case, is to do as I suggest and take him to Argentina and cap the lad.
See this is the exact thing I don't think should happen. I can understand the logic, but capping players before they are ready just to try and get their first is a very slippery slope. I've already discussed it elsewhere and I can think of nothing worse for rugby than having national teams essentially fighting over and racing each other to cap players who might be eligible.

In this particular case, yes he may have decided on Wales already, but then he should earn his place, not be capped because you're worried about other countries capping him first.
 

bushytop

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See this is the exact thing I don't think should happen. I can understand the logic, but capping players before they are ready just to try and get their first is a very slippery slope. I've already discussed it elsewhere and I can think of nothing worse for rugby than having national teams essentially fighting over and racing each other to cap players who might be eligible.

In this particular case, yes he may have decided on Wales already, but then he should earn his place, not be capped because you're worried about other countries capping him first.
I think we've (Welsh fans... and maybe even the WRU) have just been a bit spooked by his recent stealthy call up to the England u20's.

As I alluded to earlier, Wales have a genuine issue producing athletic locks... so when one does actually come along all our spidey-senses are tingling before he's even played a serious game. Athletic locks grow on trees in England... so much so that a lot of them become 'wind-fall' locks and are in the international wilderness after only one or two call ups to the squad. As a result, we'd hate to see that happen to Tshiunza... when it could be a very different story this side of the Severn.
 
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