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Welsh sides for B&I 2015/16

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32717722

It seems the WRU want to replace the current representatives in the B&I (the top 4 sides in the PP) with regional "A" sides. I can see why the WRU see this as a good idea, but it would be a shame from the point of view of the competition IMO - the "proper" Welsh sides from pride, passion, tradition and variety to the competition, most of which would go missing if they were replaced by virtual academy teams.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32717722

It seems the WRU want to replace the current representatives in the B&I (the top 4 sides in the PP) with regional "A" sides. I can see why the WRU see this as a good idea, but it would be a shame from the point of view of the competition IMO - the "proper" Welsh sides from pride, passion, tradition and variety to the competition, most of which would go missing if they were replaced by virtual academy teams.


I mean I can see why they would want to do it, especially since the Irish use pretty much the same system (and it seems to work).

At a guess the teams would be a mixture of young fringe regional players and the top players from the Premiership Clubs in each respective region.

A lot of this depends on the fate of the LV Cup as well, heard rumors it's only gonna be around for a season or two longer. If it goes, it'll leave a big gap between the Welsh Prem and the Regions, which will likely need to be filled by something similar to what the the WRU is proposing.

The only other option would be the Welsh Premiership suddenly having a massive boost in quality - not likely to happen, especially considering it basically always gets dominated by one side - Pontypridd at the moment, Neath a few years back.
 
You've got to remember that there's no reserve league for the Pro 12. That means players short of game time, guys just coming out of the academies, and guys on the fringe of the squad have to go into the national leagues for game time. They're okay, but they're a long way short of the standard of the championship for example. The provinces view the B&I cup as a chance to get these guys more game time and get them used to playing in the provincial setup. Can't blame the Welsh sides for doing the same. I can understand why the English and Scottish sides would be miffed though.

I understand the championship sides no longer name their strongest sides for the B&I. Is this true?
 
The Scottish don't get to complain - they dropped out of the competition this year! The English clubs may feel aggrieved, but they have already accepted playing against the Irish regions.

I recall seeing some pretty weak London Scottish sides names for the B&I, so not all sides take it seriously. I'm not sure what the split would be between those who go out to win at all costs and those who treat it like the level 2 version of the LV cup though.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32717722

It seems the WRU want to replace the current representatives in the B&I (the top 4 sides in the PP) with regional "A" sides. I can see why the WRU see this as a good idea, but it would be a shame from the point of view of the competition IMO - the "proper" Welsh sides from pride, passion, tradition and variety to the competition, most of which would go missing if they were replaced by virtual academy teams.

Think it's a disgraceful move, implement an A league like the premiership.
 
This is nonsense. What they need to do is put more resources to developing the quality, and competitiveness, of the league. How would this plan of a potential 6 game schedule help to develop the players?
 
Think it's a disgraceful move, implement an A league like the premiership.

How would an A league work though? If it's only Welsh teams, they're going to end up facing the same three opponents a lot, if it's PRO12 wide, it could create another financial burden on the already hard pushed regions.
 
The problem is that it is very messy for the 'A' type players at the moment, as they go to different clubs and there is little consistency before they come back to the regions. When they are in the league with those clubs, it is nowhere near the standard required to develop players for the professional teams. Cardiff Blues have promoted quite a few of Pontypridd's and Cardiff's players and coaches recently, and a few of the players have really not had what it takes at the Guiness level, let alone Europe.

I understand and feel wholeheartedly for those who are passionate about their semi-pro clubs, but we all lost our professional clubs when we decided to go for four professional teams. The reason for that was money, and it had to be done. I don't agree with how it was done, but thats a whole different thread worth of conversation.

The regions have to strengthen the development pathway, and this is another decision that has to be made. The B & I has proven successful for the Irish A teams. The clubs will still have their league and those players can naturally progress to the A teams.
 
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The problem is that it is very messy for the 'A' type players at the moment, as they go to different clubs and there is little consistency before they come back to the regions. When they are in the league with those clubs, it is nowhere near the standard required to develop players for the professional teams. Cardiff Blues have promoted quite a few of Pontypridd's and Cardiff's players and coaches recently, and a few of the players have really not had what it takes at the Guiness level, let alone Europe.

I understand and feel wholeheartedly for those who are passionate about their semi-pro clubs, but we all lost our professional clubs when we decided to go for four professional teams. The reason for that was money, and it had to be done. I don't agree with how it was done, but thats a whole different thread worth of conversation.

The regions have to strengthen the development pathway, and this is another decision that has to be made. The B & I has proven successful for the Irish A teams. The clubs will still have their league and those players can naturally progress to the A teams.
Utter nonsense.If you take the Blues as an example a premiership select team from the region would basically be Pontypridd with a few token Cardiff RFC guests.This would entail mostly the same players going from playing in front of large,passionate crowds to performing in front of empty stands as Ponty fans will boycott the games and the Blues can't even half fill the Arms Park for first team games.

This idea will also rob the qualifying clubs of crucial income.Saw Gareth Davies clumsily try to defend the sorry idea on Scum V.He displayed the same amount of flair as he did as player.None.
 
Utter nonsense.If you take the Blues as an example a premiership select team from the region would basically be Pontypridd with a few token Cardiff RFC guests.This would entail mostly the same players going from playing in front of large,passionate crowds to performing in front of empty stands as Ponty fans will boycott the games and the Blues can't even half fill the Arms Park for first team games.

This idea will also rob the qualifying clubs of crucial income.Saw Gareth Davies clumsily try to defend the sorry idea on Scum V.He displayed the same amount of flair as he did as player.None.

It's not utter nonsense RR. Dicamondis, Geraint Walsh, the Chief, all perfect examples of players or coaches that are struggling to make the step up. GW was premiership player of the season and he has been a massive let down. I admire the Chief, but since he's arrived as defence coach it's been pretty hard viewing.

Comparing crowds is also a ridiculous point to bring up. Empty stands haha? Ponty fans already boycott the Blues. To be frank, they aren't going to target them as fans, because it's a waste of time, and money, trying to turn them. There are plenty of other valleys areas to work with.

The whole point of this change is to develop a player development pathway that can strengthen the four professional teams. It's not working at the moment.
 
I won't pretend to understand how the system works over the Bridge nor understand why it is the way it is though I suspect somebody will enlighten me.
There is a huge amount of friendly rivalry and banter between the English and Welsh none more so than between Bristol and the welsh clubs, areas where Rugby is deeply imbedded in our souls. Give any Welshman a chance to pit their clubs against the English and they will grasp it with both hands & probably even bite your hands off because it matters to them and rightly so. They are as proud to be Welsh and a Ponty fan as I am to be English and a Bristol fan. They want their best players playing in the best team they can put out. Do they really want to be in a position where they have to play somebody else's players or have their best players playing for somebody else's club??
I know many have said that the B& I cup is a tin pot competition, ok your entitled to that opinion but try telling that to those over at the House of pain (Pontypridd), Cardiff and so on that playing the likes of Bristol doesn't matter to them . It's England V Wales at club level. In fact many of these Bristol V Welsh club fixtures were first played well over a Hundred years ago; I believe it's something like 127 years in the case of Cardiff. So my thoughts are simple. All Clubs matter, they matter to the people who come rain or shine stand shoulder to shoulder and support their clubs through thick and thin. They don't want their historic clubs and its proud traditions dismantled by people who have no understanding of what matters to them and what they stand for. Yes our National teams are important but its success depends on successful the grass root rugby clubs both big and small. Is it not the same for all of us Rugby Supporters and all clubs?
 
I won't pretend to understand how the system works over the Bridge nor understand why it is the way it is though I suspect somebody will enlighten me.
There is a huge amount of friendly rivalry and banter between the English and Welsh none more so than between Bristol and the welsh clubs, areas where Rugby is deeply imbedded in our souls. Give any Welshman a chance to pit their clubs against the English and they will grasp it with both hands & probably even bite your hands off because it matters to them and rightly so. They are as proud to be Welsh and a Ponty fan as I am to be English and a Bristol fan. They want their best players playing in the best team they can put out. Do they really want to be in a position where they have to play somebody else's players or have their best players playing for somebody else's club??
I know many have said that the B& I cup is a tin pot competition, ok your entitled to that opinion but try telling that to those over at the House of pain (Pontypridd), Cardiff and so on that playing the likes of Bristol doesn't matter to them . It's England V Wales at club level. In fact many of these Bristol V Welsh club fixtures were first played well over a Hundred years ago; I believe it's something like 127 years in the case of Cardiff. So my thoughts are simple. All Clubs matter, they matter to the people who come rain or shine stand shoulder to shoulder and support their clubs through thick and thin. They don't want their historic clubs and its proud traditions dismantled by people who have no understanding of what matters to them and what they stand for. Yes our National teams are important but its success depends on successful the grass root rugby clubs both big and small. Is it not the same for all of us Rugby Supporters and all clubs?
Great post Alias.The Pontypridd Facebook page and website have messages of support from fans of clubs like Bristol,Worcester and Cornish Pirates,all of Pontypridd fans have visited in large numbers and in doing so made a very good impression with their passion and humour.All that will be lost if this idea comes to fruition.A previous poster speaks of attracting fans from other valleys to make up for Ponty fans he (rightly) says will never follow the Blues.I suggest he invests in an atlas.Pontypridd was in effect a regional side before the regions existed.If the Blues can't even attract a decent number of Cardiff people for their first teams games what hope have they got of getting anyone down from the valleys.

Pontypridd players,who would surely provide the bulk of a Blues premiership select side.are from a culture of success,both in domestic competition and the B&I Cup,whereas the Blues have been an embarrassment in recent years.The idea is madness.Leave things as they are.
 
Yes our National teams are important but its success depends on successful the grass root rugby clubs both big and small. Is it not the same for all of us Rugby Supporters and all clubs?

I'm tired of this whole Pontypridd Blues thing as well to be honest. It's exhausting as a supporter and is mainly created by passion for traditional clubs (which I genuinely understand), rather than an understanding of the funding and the player development system.

It's a hard thing explain in a post Alias, and to be honest, most Welsh and will have a different perspective on the problems of Welsh rugby, which is why we are always arguing. In a nutshell, the way the five professional teams were created was based on who had the money to do so, as the WRU was poor at the time, and therefore private individuals shaped the future of Welsh rugby. At the time, the big clubs were mainly funded by benefactors who were ploughing private money into the game. However, most of this was unfeasible in the long term, Cardiff Blues (or Cardiff RFC Ltd) still owe Peter Thomas (the chairman) just under £11 million pounds thanks to that period. So, the WRU didn't have the money to represent everyone, and most teams didn't have the money to compete at the highest level, and therefore it was decided that 4/5 teams would be created to try to represent regions of Wales.

The process of creating the regions was unstable and completed far too quickly, leaving what looked like 3 clubs and 2 regions. The Celtic Warriors demise left a large section of a rugby playing population without a professional to represent them. Knowing there was (and still isn't) any money to keep the Warriors going, much of the Valley's and Powys player development responsibilities (that includes clubs like Beddau, Pontypridd and Merthyr) were handed to the Cardiff Blues and much of the Bridgend region's player development was handed to the Ospreys.

Problem is, Pontypridd fans (I'm not so sure about the other valleys clubs, because they are also very proud) do not feel the Blues represent the Valleys. After all, they are called Cardiff Blues and play at the Cardiff arms park. I get that. However, the private businessman who owns Cardiff RFC Ltd and Cardiff Blues, know it's far too risky and expensive to set up a whole new region, which a new stadium, new infrastructure and a new name. Plus, we know when Cardiff Blues are playing well the crowds are there. Look back to the HC QF and SF of 2008, they had in excess of 40 and 60 thousand at those games. It's too dangerous and bad business to change for those who suggest they "will never be a blue" anyway?

So, because Cardiff Blues won't change for various commercial reasons, Ponty fans are very passionate about their own semi-pro club, as they always have been. Cardiff Blues sign a number of Pontypridd RFC and Cardiff RFC players to the professional set up as that's the player pathway. These players are often sent back to their clubs to get game time with their wages paid by Cardiff Blues and continue to develop. However, this set up isn't developing players of a high quality and many point the finger at the Principally premiership. Where we are arguing at the moment is whether they try to strengthen the semi-pro sides or whether the regions should bring in A teams.

Other fans may tell you story in different ways. They will also have a few theories about the demise of the Warriors, which has also left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of people. The 127 years of Cardiff RFC will always be remembered, but the Cardiff Blues are not that team.
 
I'm tired of this whole Pontypridd Blues thing as well to be honest. It's exhausting as a supporter and is mainly created by passion for traditional clubs (which I genuinely understand), rather than an understanding of the funding and the player development system.

It's a hard thing explain in a post Alias, and to be honest, most Welsh and will have a different perspective on the problems of Welsh rugby, which is why we are always arguing. In a nutshell, the way the five professional teams were created was based on who had the money to do so, as the WRU was poor at the time, and therefore private individuals shaped the future of Welsh rugby. At the time, the big clubs were mainly funded by benefactors who were ploughing private money into the game. However, most of this was unfeasible in the long term, Cardiff Blues (or Cardiff RFC Ltd) still owe Peter Thomas (the chairman) just under £11 million pounds thanks to that period. So, the WRU didn't have the money to represent everyone, and most teams didn't have the money to compete at the highest level, and therefore it was decided that 4/5 teams would be created to try to represent regions of Wales.

The process of creating the regions was unstable and completed far too quickly, leaving what looked like 3 clubs and 2 regions. The Celtic Warriors demise left a large section of a rugby playing population without a professional to represent them. Knowing there was (and still isn't) any money to keep the Warriors going, much of the Valley's and Powys player development responsibilities (that includes clubs like Beddau, Pontypridd and Merthyr) were handed to the Cardiff Blues and much of the Bridgend region's player development was handed to the Ospreys.

Problem is, Pontypridd fans (I'm not so sure about the other valleys clubs, because they are also very proud) do not feel the Blues represent the Valleys. After all, they are called Cardiff Blues and play at the Cardiff arms park. I get that. However, the private businessman who owns Cardiff RFC Ltd and Cardiff Blues, know it's far too risky and expensive to set up a whole new region, which a new stadium, new infrastructure and a new name. Plus, we know when Cardiff Blues are playing well the crowds are there. Look back to the HC QF and SF of 2008, they had in excess of 40 and 60 thousand at those games. It's too dangerous and bad business to change for those who suggest they "will never be a blue" anyway?

So, because Cardiff Blues won't change for various commercial reasons, Ponty fans are very passionate about their own semi-pro club, as they always have been. Cardiff Blues sign a number of Pontypridd RFC and Cardiff RFC players to the professional set up as that's the player pathway. These players are often sent back to their clubs to get game time with their wages paid by Cardiff Blues and continue to develop. However, this set up isn't developing players of a high quality and many point the finger at the Principally premiership. Where we are arguing at the moment is whether they try to strengthen the semi-pro sides or whether the regions should bring in A teams.

Other fans may tell you story in different ways. They will also have a few theories about the demise of the Warriors, which has also left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of people. The 127 years of Cardiff RFC will always be remembered, but the Cardiff Blues are not that team.

Lets be honest here If you asked me Bristol fans to go and support Bath or Gloucester you'd soon get shown a little place where the sun never shines. Its the same in reverse and Its the same for Ponty fans, its the same the world over.. With the exception of those few who will support any succesfull team (Man U types) most of a clubs core fans support their chosen clubs for a reason mostly because we see it as ours, belonging to and representing us, our towns and the area to which we belong. Nobody in their right mind would think the proud people of the Valleys would except Cardiff Blues or any other club no matter how good they were as representing them. The only other entities that they rightly accept is their National team. Its the same for Bristol, Bath, Gloucester. from what little I can see and understand it just seems entirly brainless idea but thats just me. It must also be said and understood by all that something must be done and done quickly to support our grass root rugby and our clubs. It is the same both sides of the bridge.
 
It's not utter nonsense RR. Dicamondis, Geraint Walsh, the Chief, all perfect examples of players or coaches that are struggling to make the step up. GW was premiership player of the season and he has been a massive let down. I admire the Chief, but since he's arrived as defence coach it's been pretty hard viewing.

Comparing crowds is also a ridiculous point to bring up. Empty stands haha? Ponty fans already boycott the Blues. To be frank, they aren't going to target them as fans, because it's a waste of time, and money, trying to turn them. There are plenty of other valleys areas to work with.

The whole point of this change is to develop a player development pathway that can strengthen the four professional teams. It's not working at the moment.

Firstly there have been plenty of Ponty players who have made it at the Blues, from Melon and Nugget to Liam Belcher there are plenty.
Secondly the Blues dont deserve Johnsy and Chief, who are coaching a squad they havent amassed themselves.
Thirdly its time to scrap the Blues and have the region where it should be at Sardis Rd, Ponty often have more support than the regions and would sell out if they were a region.
Finally as my 3rd point isnt likely to happen for reasons we are all aware of the idea of putting the regions A sides in thr BIC would be the death knell for clubs with nothing to aim at other than the domestic league and cup.
 
It would be a decent idea if these A teams played regularly. As it is they'll play a handful of games in the B&I. What benefit does that give to young players or guys on the fringes. For A teams to have any benefit they need to play in a league with regular games which isn't going to happen. Leave the B&I to clubs and players who really care whether they win it or not!
 
This Ponty v. The Blues rhetoric is exhausting, and has been going on far too long.

Its fine for you to say that when you were given whats amounts to a stand alone region, apart from the Ospreys the Warriors were the only other real region.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32717722

It seems the WRU want to replace the current representatives in the B&I (the top 4 sides in the PP) with regional "A" sides. I can see why the WRU see this as a good idea, but it would be a shame from the point of view of the competition IMO - the "proper" Welsh sides from pride, passion, tradition and variety to the competition, most of which would go missing if they were replaced by virtual academy teams.

You are absolutely right. I can only speak from a Ponty viewpoint, but I know if you ask the supporters of teams we have played away in the BIC, such as Bristol, Connacht,The Pirates, Worcester etc, they will say the passion and pride we bring is second to none, Worcester supporters for example asking for a pre season against us as we provided better atmosphere than most opposition they have played against in recent years.
 
Are Ponty the ones who claimed to be taking something ridiculous like 3000 supporters to Cornish Pirates, and ended up with about 2 coaches full?
Seem to remember a lot of people laughing about it on Gwlad.
 
Are Ponty the ones who claimed to be taking something ridiculous like 3000 supporters to Cornish Pirates, and ended up with about 2 coaches full?
Seem to remember a lot of people laughing about it on Gwlad.
In reference to your comments, the following is one of dozens of quotes from Pirates supporters on our web site after we played them -:

Cornish Well done Ponty but especially the fans who were brilliant. Obvioously sad for us, Pirates, to lose but Ponty fought back roared on by a great crowd who made it seem like their home ground. I could hear the ponty fans singing at Morrab Place as we walked to the ground. Great atmosphere and exciting game!

We took a damn site more than 2 coaches and several hundred went to Cornwall and made a holiday of it staying for 3,4 or 5 days, boosting the Cornish economy with our enormous capacity for alcohol.
We are the supporters from Wales who bring the most in noise, humour, passion, pride and noise.
 

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