Western Force officially dumped out of Super Rugby

[mania]

This is a bit of an over simplification. The grass roots spending is an issue, but ultimately to recruit kids and manage growth you need a prime time elite product.

no RoosTah, u have around the wrong way. if grassroots is stron the top of the pyramid will be strong. if grass roots is weak everything will collaspe.
this is yet another example what i've just explained in that aus dont want our help. NZ tells Aus whats going wrong and to grow your grassroots. then aussie coming back saying thats not it, then spending money on the top of the pyramid on leagees, pococks sabbatical payments, folau's retaining fee instead of the captains benMowen and paying salaries at the ARU, the decline continues and then another aussie comes up with a suggestion to allow aus teams to join the ITM, we say no then aus cry foul that we're not helping. youve been told what to do to save aus rugby but still you insist that grassroots isnt the answer.

i give up

 

[mania]

As I said, the question of what NZ can do is a difficult one, but i dont think its melodramatic to say that the future of Super Rugby is at stake, and I doubt that NZ Rugby can really afford to have it fall over. The clear and obvious move of SA teams into Europe add to the danger. For those reasons I think its important NZ Rugby at least give consideration to thinking outside the box about what can be done.

NZ and superRugby can survive without aus. between SA and NZ we have 2 of the top 3 in the SH.
sorry it has to be said so that aus can really understand the full repercussions of what will happen if they dont sort out this demise.
i predicted this years ago that aus would be the first country kicked out of super rugby unless they started pulling their weight. this is not NZ's problem. fix your grassroots and you will start reaping the benefits within 6-8 years. our domestic comps will stay closed to aus because these are domestic. aus need to develop their own starting from school levels up.

 

[mania]

But you could get away with maybe *one* Aussie team in each division...

please no. i cant see them bringing anything positive to a domestic comp that works. i don't want aus ruining NZ domestic rugby.
i would sanction a handful of players being allowed in per team, but they would have to come here and join one of our established teams and they would have to adjust to the way we do things. u never know they might actually learn something.
no way would i let an entire aus team join. that just dilutes the quality of rugby and i'm not sure the ITM is strong enough to survive aus players ruining it.

 

[mdaclarke]

The Australians need to be careful. Super Rugby can survive without Australia, it can't survive without New Zealand or South Africa.

 

[die_mole]

1. why would the top league want australian teams?

2. does this mean that south africa holds all the power in sanzaar now? they can pretty much end super rugby if they want to

 

[mania]

The Australians need to be careful. Super Rugby can survive without Australia, it can't survive without New Zealand or South Africa.

this is what i keep saying. unless aus gets its sht together they will get kicked out. its not too late to start building a strong robust grassroots

 

[RoosTah]

no RoosTah, u have around the wrong way. if grassroots is stron the top of the pyramid will be strong. if grass roots is weak everything will collaspe.
this is yet another example what i've just explained in that aus dont want our help. NZ tells Aus whats going wrong and to grow your grassroots. then aussie coming back saying thats not it, then spending money on the top of the pyramid on leagees, pococks sabbatical payments, folau's retaining fee instead of the captains benMowen and paying salaries at the ARU, the decline continues and then another aussie comes up with a suggestion to allow aus teams to join the ITM, we say no then aus cry foul that we're not helping. youve been told what to do to save aus rugby but still you insist that grassroots isnt the answer.

i give up

I didn't say you were wrong, I just said that it's not just the grassroots spending. Put it to you this way: if the NRL, AFL and ARU were all spending equally and in similar areas, which sport do you think a young kid is going to choose? Most likely the one where he/she has a sporting hero. But if your sport doesn't exist on 70percent of televisions outside of the test season, then your target audience is statistically less likely to have a hero in your sport and your left with the small community of rugby mad parents who actively pressure their kids into playing.
So yes, you need to spend big on junior development, but you also need for the juniors to know and look up to people in your game.

 

[mania]

So yes, you need to spend big on junior development, but you also need for the juniors to know and look up to people in your game.

yes this goes hand in hand but grassroots is primary and has to happen first. heroes come and go, but the next gen is the key. they can still succeed without looking up to heroes, it just makes it harder. but you already have rugby heroes. aus has loads of them. gregan, eales, chrisLatham, the ella's, campese,poidevin etc.
grassroots is key. if u dont have that then youre wasting your time.
i lived in NSW for a few years and i was appalled by the lack of grassroots for rugby. the pathways for league are awesome and they engage everyone. rugby just caters to the private school.
in mtDruitt of all the millions of kids that have gone through there in the past 10-20 years, beale is the only one to play rugby for aus and thats only because he got a rugby scholarship to go to a private school.
u look at the amount of league players and its very one sided.
start a grassroots that encompasses every class of people. then have the heroes go to the grassroots and start giving back.
then poach administrators and planners from the NRL because they really know what theyre doing.

 

[die_mole]

It's a bit chicken and egg though.
In America for example: we could have youth rugby in every single town well funded and it would mean jack all if football and basketball were offering more college scholarships.

pathways have to have a beginning and an end, not just one

 

[mdaclarke]

1. why would the top league want australian teams?

2. does this mean that south africa holds all the power in sanzaar now? they can pretty much end super rugby if they want to

No. 2 Possibly, they have other options, especially if the Pro 14 experiment is successful.

 

[Brigantine]

1. why would the top league want australian teams?

Why would the Pro12 want South African teams?

If there really is potential to build a significantly larger TV market in Australia by having games at prime time, the Japanese teams (well, the sponsors) could make business out of it. Especially with the RWC in Japan soon.

Japan and Australia both find away games in South Africa a nuisance, are currently uncompetitive in SR anyway, and the time zones line up perfectly. If Japan want to improve further beyond 2019, what better options do they have?

Needless to say I'm looking forward to the Australia-Japan SR conference in 2018!

 

[InsaneAsylum]

The ARU had to dump the Force because legally they couldnt dump the Rebels due to the issues around private ownership and they didnt have the balls to do the right thing and merge the Bush Ponies with the Tahs - which was the only really logical solution. Now further harm has been done to the game in Aus. I guess the only good news was Pulver's resignation, but whether anyone with any vision for the future of the game gets the role is the big unknown.

Pulver's resignation was like a good desert after a bad dinner

good riddance

 

[die_mole]

Why would the Pro12 want South African teams?

If there really is potential to build a significantly larger TV market in Australia by having games at prime time, the Japanese teams (well, the sponsors) could make business out of it. Especially with the RWC in Japan soon.

Japan and Australia both find away games in South Africa a nuisance, are currently uncompetitive in SR anyway, and the time zones line up perfectly. If Japan want to improve further beyond 2019, what better options do they have?

Needless to say I'm looking forward to the Australia-Japan SR conference in 2018!

I was referring to the isolationist tendencies of Japan. The top league is serving its purpose in Japan and I the introduction of foreign teams would only hurt the popularity of the league.

There have been historical talks of South Africa joining the European leagues, I haven't heard anything from Japan stating their interest and given their culture I guarantee that they don't want Australian teams.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

no RoosTah, u have around the wrong way. if grassroots is stron the top of the pyramid will be strong. if grass roots is weak everything will collaspe.
this is yet another example what i've just explained in that aus dont want our help. NZ tells Aus whats going wrong and to grow your grassroots. then aussie coming back saying thats not it, then spending money on the top of the pyramid on leagees, pococks sabbatical payments, folau's retaining fee instead of the captains benMowen and paying salaries at the ARU, the decline continues and then another aussie comes up with a suggestion to allow aus teams to join the ITM, we say no then aus cry foul that we're not helping. youve been told what to do to save aus rugby but still you insist that grassroots isnt the answer.

i give up

mania, we as fans have been trying to tell the ARU this for years as well. they just wont listen.

it's seems that NZRU check their egos at the door and put the national team first whereas the ARU's best interests are with each Super team, and hence why the Wallabies suffer.

I'm sad for the Force and their fans and relieved that I'll be able to still follow my team next year. none of us should have been cut - a merger like Galumay suggested was the best option. Even if it implicated the Rebels, I would have still supported the merged team. With this decision, the ARU have completely alienated themselves from all the fans in WA. dumb move, but that's what we expect from the ARU, totally out of their depth.

Melbourne now has to validate the ARU's decision, VRU participation, Rebels membership and increased crowd numbers are going to be important. Hopefully we can sign Wessels from the Forst who has the makings of a good coach and pick up 2 or 3 force players.

 

[mania]

mania, we as fans have been trying to tell the ARU this for years as well. they just wont listen.

InsaneAsylum i feel your plight and thanks . i didnt realise the pressure thats now on the rebels to justify their continued existence. thats a big anchor to carry around.
this is a major mess

 

[InsaneAsylum]

InsaneAsylum i feel your plight and thanks . i didnt realise the pressure thats now on the rebels to justify their continued existence. thats a big anchor to carry around.
this is a major mess

you are right though, I have been to NZ many times and have seen junior rugby training being run in the afternoons. the number of kids is insane when you compare that to here.

Also don't be fooled by the "no one in Melbourne cares about Rugby" line that's being bandied around. It's garbage. we've had a decent grass roots comp for decades and i saw a huge difference in professionalism in 2011 when the Rebels were introduced. There has also been the addition of 2 junior clubs in the last 2 years. slow going, but it is growing!! let's see how the rising go this year in the NRC, looking fwd to it

 

[mania]

you are right though, I have been to NZ many times and have seen junior rugby training being run in the afternoons. the number of kids is insane when you compare that to here.

InsaneAsylum u think thats insane. i coach under10's. every now and then , especially our night games under lights, its not unusual for an ex AllBlack to turn up and ref. when i asked why he gave up his personal time on a friday night, he replied "so you coaches can get on with coaching"
i help out at the local 1stXV and we've had 3 exAllBlacks turn up and help out. one of them (captain fantastic) was asked to speak and he rightfully ripped into the islander kids (he's an islander himself) about slacking off and their over developed sense of entitlement attitude.

my sister lives in melbourne and she confirms what you say about grassroots. she confirms that its a much better grassroots than what they have in NSW

 

[TRF_heineken]

1. why would the top league want australian teams?

2. does this mean that south africa holds all the power in sanzaar now? they can pretty much end super rugby if they want to

It's funny how the cycle runs. For years, Australia and New Zealand used to bully South Africa in decisions being made when it was the Super 12/14/15. Now it seems it has turned.

Not that I think we have all the power, I do however think we have a bigger say than what we used to have. There was always a threat being rumoured that SA could leave Super Rugby and join the European market, and everybody said, "nah, it won't happen" etc. Now, that we have shown that it's possible, while still being competitive in Super Rugby, the focus is on us and what we're going to do.

But again, as I said before, we won't end Super Rugby. We won't leave SANZAAR. We won't stop playing against Australia and New Zealand. They are our biggest competition and we have a natural tendency to want to beat them every chance we get.

We still have a lot to sort out ourselves, and I think we will be lucky if we manage to win more than half of our matches in the Rugby Championship this year.

Latest reports suggest that SARU will need another 18 months to get back to a profitable margin after the shambles of last year. We managed to get 2 big sponsors for the Bokke, which already helps a lot. But with that said we still have some things to sort out.

 

[galumay]

NZ and superRugby can survive without aus.

I dont think it can, especially when you add the drift to Europe from SA. I guess it depends what you mean by survive, but part of the problem is NZ continuing to dismiss the issue by saying it wont potentially destroy Super Rugby.

"Grassroots" is starting to sound like a broken record. As others have said its very easy to claim that is the only thing needed to fix the game in Australia, its much more complex than that when you have 3 other strong football codes competing for kids, coaches, sponsors, government support etc. SA & NZ simply have no idea of how much more difficult that makes it to develop the game. Whether you admit it or not its a catch 22, kids wont get involved when there is no visual presense of the game, and no obvious path, but its very difficult to construct successful club, Super and National teams if there is insuficient 'grass roots' rugby. Its not simply a matter of throwing money at schoolboy rugby for instance, in fact that would be probably be even more wasteful than Poey's sabbatical!

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

we've had 3 exAllBlacks turn up and help out.

Just out of interest, which ex All Blacks?