What has happened to Australian Rugby?

[smartcooky]

A lot of rugby fans don't like Spiro Zavos, but he doesn't get much wrong in this Roar article in which he delivers a scathing report card on the state of Australian Super Rugby...

http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/07/11/worst-aussie-super-rugby-round-ever/

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The commentator on the Waratahs - Blues game was just about close to tears of frustration when he we talking about the superior passing and catching skills of a NZ players. He was almost as bad talking about NZ number tens when he talked about Barret being able to kick crossfield so well, then the others pointed out that a few other NZ 10s can do the same, while there is nobody in the green and gold that seems able to pull off that skill consistently.

Funny to read about the Aussies having the same class divide when it comes to playing rugby in Scotland. Any Rugby Union and government that allows that to persist deserves all the failure they get in my opinion (including Scotland).

 

[Larksea]

he also says some silly stuff that doesn't make sense....

"The Western Forcem who the Brumbies are lucky enough to be playingm are as weak as the Blues, the Waratahs opponents at Eden Park on Friday night, are strong."

and yes it says "Forcem" "playingm", its a direct copy and paste...

try and figure that out...

its interesting the skill gap. I watched the Reds/Chiefs game last night and at one point the chiefs had just strung 10-15 impressive offloads and passes together and scored a try. Then the Reds got the ball and after two phases a player tried an offload and it was a complete mess and turned possession over again. That was a lot of the problem in a nutshell.

From a NZ perspective, over the last few years the age group development system has been focusing on skills over conditioning. And the belief is that while it means that our U20's and equivalent teams are not as dominant the end result is that we are producing better senior level players for NPC/super rugby and the All Blacks Where conditioning is taken care of. And it seems to be working.

 

[Jaguares]

You can't compare NZ and OZ in Rugby Union at the same level. Union is a religion in NZ meanwhile in OZ is the 4th footy code, our code is trying to survive there.

Australia has 600k registered Aussie Rules players, 500k registered Rugby League players and less than 90k Rugby Union players, and the numbers are decreasing every day. Even soccer is more popular than our code there. The ARU is broke, they have less supporters and less money that their rivals codes meanwhile in NZ, Union is the king by far.

In OZ, Israel Folau is the most famous Wallaby, because he's a former NRL, Origin and Kangaroos player. Probably the kind of structure, training and competitive enviroment that a top class NZ player has, is the kind of structure that an Origin player like Johnathan Thurston or an AFL superstar has. JT is the best between 500k registered players in their country, he's obviously a better athlete than Bernard Foley or Quade Cooper.

The ARU has 90k players for 5 franchises and they aren't the best athletes of their country and has amateur competitions behind them. The NZRU has almost 150k registered players for 5 franchises, they are the best of the best athletes in their country and have the support of a professional competition like the ITM Cup.

 

[Larksea]

Australia has 600k registered Aussie Rules players, 500k registered Rugby League players and less than 90k Rugby Union players, and the numbers are decreasing every day. Even soccer is more popular than our code there. The ARU is broke, they have less supporters and less money that their rivals codes meanwhile in NZ, Union is the king by far.

ok apply that thinking to league then, compare how many registered league players there are in NZ vs. AUS and tell me thats a good indicator of what the relative performance is. At a rough estimate I'd say AUS has between 6 to 10 times the number of registered league players compared to NZ yet the kiwis get regular game and competition wins over Australia. OR do the same comparison to the UK where registered league players should again be considerably higher and they even have their own professional competition yet they are ranked lower than the kiwis.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Absolutely. The above figures are something that can excuse poor organisation. New Zealand overachieve in Union, League and arguably cricket relative to the top countries in those sports. There must be a lot of very clever people involved in running and coaching sport in New Zealand to make them consistently punch above their weight.

There must be plenty raw material in Australia to regain a top 3 world ranking and have a couple of strong club sides. Plus, to out things in perspective they are 4N defending champs and WC semi-finalists last year. So it's not like the game is on life support in Australia.

 

[Jaguares]

ok apply that thinking to league then, compare how many registered league players there are in NZ vs. AUS and tell me thats a good indicator of what the relative performance is. At a rough estimate I'd say AUS has between 6 to 10 times the number of registered league players compared to NZ yet the kiwis get regular game and competition wins over Australia. OR do the same comparison to the UK where registered league players should again be considerably higher and they even have their own professional competition yet they are ranked lower than the kiwis.

Well, the record between Kangaroos and Kiwis is almost porn:

Played 131
OZ wins 96
NZ wins 32
Draws 3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_vs_New_Zealand_in_rugby_league

And at the Rugby League World Cup the record is worst:

OZ wins 10 World Cups
NZ wins 1 World Cups

Even the Wallabies are more competetive against ABs at World Cups (2 vs 3)

The NZ Rugby League is running like an Australian state, their best players come from the structure of the powerful NRL, that not happen in Rugby Union, where the ARU has their own structure and of course is less competitive than the NZRU structure.

 

[Larksea]

is listing the all time record suppose to be an argument against my point? or any indicator of recent/current performance?

the last 10 years have been fairly even, the Kangaroos maybe the better team overall during this period but not by much. While the Kiwis have clearly been better than the Brits.

Kiwis are CURRENTLY #1 in the world rankings and have won something like 3 of the last 4 tests against Australia.

won a tri nations in 2005
world cup in 2008
four nations in 2010 & 2014
And of course last year was huge for the Kiwis. Getting the #1 ranking from the Roos.

 

[Jaguares]

is listing the all time record suppose to be an argument against my point? or any indicator of recent/current performance?

the last 10 years have been fairly even, the Kangaroos maybe the better team overall during this period but not by much. While the Kiwis have clearly been better than the Brits.

Kiwis are CURRENTLY #1 in the world rankings and have won something like 3 of the last 4 tests against Australia.

won a tri nations in 2005
world cup in 2008
four nations in 2010 & 2014
And of course last year was huge for the Kiwis. Getting the #1 ranking from the Roos.

Everybody knows that the rankings is false. The Kangaroos are by far the best team in the world, and the difference is bigger than the Bledisloe.

 

[Larksea]

sorry that's a terrible argument.

also worth considering that the vast majority of tests between NZ and AUS are played in Australia. Home games for the Kiwis are rare.

your missing the point though, considering that Australia have in the region of at least 6 and as many as 10 times the number of league players.

quick look at recent history, 15 games

Rugby
NZ 11 wins 7 home games
AU 2 wins 7 home games
2 draws

League
NZ 4 wins 3 home games
AU 11 wins 9 home games

NZ recent record against AU in league is clearly better than AU record against NZ in rugby. considering the number of home games AU get over the kiwis its considerably better.

 

[smartcooky]

Everybody knows that the rankings is false. The Kangaroos are by far the best team in the world, and the difference is bigger than the Bledisloe.

Rankings are based on RECENT RESULTS. If they weren't, the All Blacks would be remain ranked no 1 forever.

 

[Jaguares]

sorry that's a terrible argument.

also worth considering that the vast majority of tests between NZ and AUS are played in Australia. Home games for the Kiwis are rare.

your missing the point though, considering that Australia have in the region of at least 6 and as many as 10 times the number of league players.

quick look at recent history, 15 games

Rugby
NZ 11 wins 7 home games
AU 2 wins 7 home games
2 draws

League
NZ 4 wins 3 home games
AU 11 wins 9 home games

NZ recent record against AU in league is clearly better than AU record against NZ in rugby. considering the number of home games AU get over the kiwis its considerably better.

Yeah, and what about the last 25 years? The Wallabies won 2 World Cups, 4 Tri Nations and beat the ABs in 2 World Cups (1991 and 2003). That's more competitive that the Kiwis at League test level

Rankings are based on RECENT RESULTS. If they weren't, the All Blacks would be remain ranked no 1 forever.

The Kangaroos have suffered many injuries, a full strenght Kangaroos squad vs a full strenght Kiwis squad, in that situation the Kiwis are the underdogs by far. This Queensland Maroons squad of the last years is considered one of the best Origin squad in the League history and they are the base for the Kangaroos. Legends like Johnathan Thurston, Cameron Smith and Corey Parker are for League like Richie McCaw, Dan Carter and Conrad Smith were for Union in the last decade.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The commentator on the Waratahs - Blues game was just about close to tears of frustration when he we talking about the superior passing and catching skills of a NZ players. He was almost as bad talking about NZ number tens when he talked about Barret being able to kick crossfield so well, then the others pointed out that a few other NZ 10s can do the same, while there is nobody in the green and gold that seems able to pull off that skill consistently.

Funny to read about the Aussies having the same class divide when it comes to playing rugby in Scotland. Any Rugby Union and government that allows that to persist deserves all the failure they get in my opinion (including Scotland).

Interesting to revisit this remark of mine. I think the Aussie sides in SR have made genuine improvement rather than it simply all being due to a slump in the Kiwis (Crusaders and Blues still at a very high level).

So fast forward 6 years and we have the Brumbies and Waratahs beating NZ sides including the surreal sight of Michael Hooper trying (and failing) not to grin in disbelief at picking up a win on NZ soil. Even their lesser sides in the Force and Rebels can play some attractive rugby now and there are signs of a bit more fan interest now that not every NZ side can smash every Aus one.

Factor in another good national coach like Rennie and a SR format that suits Australia more (they never seemed keen on Japan, Argentina or even SA involvement) and maybe the last rites of Australian rugby union were read a little too early?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Interesting to revisit this remark of mine. I think the Aussie sides in SR have made genuine improvement rather than it simply all being due to a slump in the Kiwis (Crusaders and Blues still at a very high level).

So fast forward 6 years and we have the Brumbies and Waratahs beating NZ sides including the surreal sight of Michael Hooper trying (and failing) not to grin in disbelief at picking up a win on NZ soil. Even their lesser sides in the Force and Rebels can play some attractive rugby now and there are signs of a bit more fan interest now that not every NZ side can smash every Aus one.

Factor in another good national coach like Rennie and a SR format that suits Australia more (they never seemed keen on Japan, Argentina or even SA involvement) and maybe the last rites of Australian rugby union were read a little too early?

speaking from melbourne and having been involved in a club for the last couple of years...rugby in aussie is still very much touch and go...there just isn't the interest, i went to the super round a few weeks ago and it was abysmal, no advertising or anything and i think a total of 30k people over two days for all games

winning the world up will definitely help, speaking personally mt club is trying to build some club rooms, currently we use the Melbourne Grand Prix Pit lane garages for changing rooms, so hopefully the world cup will bring some grands or sponsorships

I think rugby in aus is the same at the top level as it is at the club level, in that, we have some great players...but we struggle to fill three senior teams (which we need to to be allowed to play), we end up having some guys play in all three games...aussie just doesn't have players for five teams

 

[Five Meters Out]

I don't know if Melbourne is a good place to look when trying to gauge the strength of Aussie Rugby Union, Womble.
You're never going to get a look in there, with Aussie Rules so dominant in the culture.
Watching last quarter of Carlton v Collingwood yesterday. 80,000 plus at a premier sporting venue. If you couldn't make it the TV package is just so much superior to Rugby. Examples - No scrum resets. No cards - foul play is dealt with afterwards by way of suspensions. Their TMO hardly ever involved and makes a decision super quick when called on. Mega stars like Big Buddy and Dusty Martin. Corny team song blasted out loud and proud for winning supporters to sing, immediately following final whistle. Winning team followed down the race a whooping and a cheering, then get to sing the song.
It's all hype, hype, hype. No wonder people want to be a part of that. It's contagious.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I don't know if Melbourne is a good place to look when trying to gauge the strength of Aussie Rugby Union, Womble.
You're never going to get a look in there, with Aussie Rules so dominant in the culture.
Watching last quarter of Carlton v Collingwood yesterday. 80,000 plus at a premier sporting venue. If you couldn't make it the TV package is just so much superior to Rugby. Examples - No scrum resets. No cards - foul play is dealt with afterwards by way of suspensions. Their TMO hardly ever involved and makes a decision super quick when called on. Mega stars like Big Buddy and Dusty Martin. Corny team song blasted out loud and proud for winning supporters to sing, immediately following final whistle. Winning team followed down the race a whooping and a cheering, then get to sing the song.
It's all hype, hype, hype. No wonder people want to be a part of that. It's contagious.

it might not be the best place for RA to try and build a bigger rugby presence.....but it HAS to be at least of the places we gauge interest....its home to one of the super franchises...the put the Super Round there...and there is strong rumours the MCG is going to put a case forward to host the RWC final...we HAVE to look at how popular rugby is here if thats where RA is concentrating

 

[Welsh Exile]

Australia and Fiji are going to pump Pivac's Wales in the group next year.

 

[Jaguares]

I don't know if Melbourne is a good place to look when trying to gauge the strength of Aussie Rugby Union, Womble.
You're never going to get a look in there, with Aussie Rules so dominant in the culture.
Watching last quarter of Carlton v Collingwood yesterday. 80,000 plus at a premier sporting venue. If you couldn't make it the TV package is just so much superior to Rugby. Examples - No scrum resets. No cards - foul play is dealt with afterwards by way of suspensions. Their TMO hardly ever involved and makes a decision super quick when called on. Mega stars like Big Buddy and Dusty Martin. Corny team song blasted out loud and proud for winning supporters to sing, immediately following final whistle. Winning team followed down the race a whooping and a cheering, then get to sing the song.
It's all hype, hype, hype. No wonder people want to be a part of that. It's contagious.

You are describing the perfect sport. I imagine that is so popular around the world. Isn't it?

 

[Al Bangor]

Aussies have a very good 7s program. They won gold in London last weekend on the HSBC series tour and beat rival New Zealand in the process. Kudos!

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Okay, the Tahs lost today and the Brumbies might also lose and the player drain continues. However, with the Reds valiant effort in Christchurch two weeks running I think it's fair to say the Aussies now have three teams playing to a decent standard week in, week out. This is for the for the first time since I've been following Super Rugby (2016 or so). Heck, since 2016 I don't think I've seen the Aussies have one decent team, never mind three. This is a huge bonus for Rennie.

If England are as disjointed as in the 6N they are probably underdogs for the series and the Wallabies should be able to act as spoliers in the RC who can potentially pick up a win at home to NZ and SA.