What now?

Discussion in 'Rugby World Cup 2015' started by The Alpha Bro, Nov 1, 2015.

  1. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    And we're done!! There's a few individual post RWC threads that'll go into more detail but this'll be an overview to see where everyone's at without having to read about youth players you won't hear about for another two years. Here I go:

    Ireland;

    Reaction to RWC 2015: disappointing but not disastrous. I'd liken it somewhat to NZ 2007, we were one of the favourites entering the tournament but were caught by a side who had their best game of the RWC in the QF's, match this with our injuries (read Wayne Barnes for NZ) we had a disappointingly early exit.

    What to do in 2019: Semi Final, nothing will ever satisfy us at a World Cup until we get our semi final berth.

    What we need to do to achieve this: keep Joe Schmidt, develop a game plan that does not revolve around having the 2nd best halfbacks in world rugby firing on all cylinders, find a centre partnership that is effective in attack while as sound in defence as Henshaw and Payne.

    Goals to achieve before RWC 2019: 6 nations championship winners (x2), win in the SH, beat all of the rugby championship sides.

    RWC 2019 potential: champions, as long as there isn't a side as good as NZ were this year/yesterday.

    Feel free to add more/alter titles and avoid dick swinging, this thread is for us to see where other fans think they're at and where they can go and nothing else. The most deluded fans (some of you will think that's me) are very welcome.
     
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  3. dunney77

    dunney77 Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, Ireland are now entering a real 'rebuilding' stage because this was the last RWC for the golden generation.

    So far it has been a trickle of players retiring each year (O'Driscoll, Darc etc) but now we have some more big stars leaving (POC) + many of the older crowd (Best, Sexton, Bowe) who sadly just won't be around at RWC 2019.

    Considering this, I simply don't think we can blood enough players and have them at international class in time.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Ireland have a bit of a stormy time in the next few years - but that would be acceptable if we create a new spine of a team.
     
  4. ncurd

    ncurd Senior Member

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    Reaction to RWC 2015: Pretty disastrous went in second favourites due to home advantage and on the back of a pretty decent 6 nations campaign where we played very good rugby, also had beaten the two main rivals in our group in the past 2 years. Retreated into our shell due to one injury and duly paid for it, from a selection POV there were some questions going in but how decisions were being made need to be seriously looked at.

    What to do in 2019: Semi-Final lets be perfectly honest here that should always be England's goal they may not always achieve it but we have the player-base and money that we should be focusing on this.

    What we need to do to achieve this: Don't mess around our systems in place too much our success' at the JRWC mean something is probably working at grassroots level plus were finally seeing the kids that would of been inspired by the 2003 win. The key think is sack Lancaster and get in a guy that can make decent selection decisions which has been the bane of Lancasters regime (dropping some combinations with barely a look and persisting with ones that don't work for too long). Ideally we want a guy who'll bring in the young talent coming through when they are ready but not rock to boat entirely. I do think Lancaster made major mistake in jettisoning a fair bit of Johnson's team meaning he virtually had to start from scratch. A decent side is there in English rugby we just need the guy who has the vision to do that.

    Goals to achieve before RWC 2019: 6 nations championship winners (x2) (a grand slam would be nice), win in the SH, beat all of the rugby championship sides. Most importantly I think we want two wins against all the rugby championship side we need to get SA monkey off our back and prove one NZ win isn't a fluke.

    RWC 2019 potential: Champions we had it this time but needed luck our way 4 years time won't be any different unless we start conquering all circa 2018.
     
  5. RugbyTackle91

    RugbyTackle91 Member

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    Yeah, I don't think England is as gloomy as many seem to suggest. We were convincingly beaten by the finalists in a game where we had too much riding on, and we narrowly lost a tight game against Wales who are tough opposition. It is a shame we never got going in the World Cup but I think too much has been made of it when someone was going to lose out in that group. We should of seen off Wales in that match but things like that happen. I still think the future is bright..
     
  6. TRF_stormer2010

    TRF_stormer2010 Super Moderator

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    Reaction to RWC 2015:
    I could so the OP's words and say "disappointing but not disastrous". ITO results going out to NZ by 2 points in a semi final sounds about as good as anyone realistically expected. The manner in which we got there though leaves a lot to be desired to me personally just for the mindset we had this year; the ease with which Meyer brushed off the losses leading up to the tournament, the selections and lack of urgency vs Japan and then the lack of impetus vs NZ in the Semi and Argentina for bronze.


    What to do in 2019:
    The SA public will always want nothing less than the title and as a fixture in the top 4 ranked sides for some time now this expectation isn't misplaced. IE we might not be favorites but we should be a good chance.

    What we need to do to achieve this:
    Despite where we are currently there are a lot of hurdles for SA going forward.
    1) The news is Heynecke Meyer has put pen to paper for another 4 years. Is this true? It has yet to be officially confirmed. What his approach will be is anyone's guess at this stage. I just hope he isn't as conservative and sentimental in his approach going forward and I don't rate his backroom staff at all. If Meyer stays on we need someone to fill in his weak points rather than a bunch of 'yes'-men.
    2) Racial transformation. Having to field 50% non-white players is going to effect our performance no question. I'm not saying non-whites play poorer. I am saying the numbers just don't add up. Sure, white and colored folk only account for ~17 (half each) of the total population but nearly any boy in that demographic that could play rugby will probably try it as opposed to the 2% of black boys that cares to play. Its just a culture thing. Not going to go into too much detail here but the end result is that what SARU is aiming for is that 30% of the team (lower levels of SA rugby as well) has to be represented by ~7% of the playing population along racial lines. The way we handle this will be critical if we want to continue competing with the best teams.
    3) Get SA's best playing in SA. A lot easier said than done. Not least because of quotas in age grade, CC and SR teams.

    Goals to achieve before RWC 2019:
    1) Meyer has to get the NZ monkey of his back. His record now stands at 7/1. TBF in this time NZ has probably been the best they have ever been and Meyer inherited a team that had gone through 0 growth and development in the previous 4 years (Peter de Villiers just took Jake White's team and hoped it'd be enough to take the 2011 cup). Also, major injuries curbed a lot of his plans the last two years and to some degree forced his hand.
    2) Get consistency ITO players, approach and results. Results should take care of themselves.

    RWC 2019 potential: Champions. A little bit of luck and the performance on the day and we have the proven potential to win titles.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  7. Old Hooker

    Old Hooker Senior Member

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    I actually think England's problems run deeper than many are saying. A change of coach will improve some things as will smarter selection. But as Brian Moore observes in the Torygraph.....

    "Having spoken to many former All Blacks over the past seven weeks, two things were common in their explanation of New Zealand’s success. First was early inculcation of handling and running skills above anything else. Second was the fact that all of their domestic game is purposely designed for the international side to succeed. The priorities of clubs and provinces are sacrificed for the greater good".

    The latter hits the nail on the head. We can have all the JRWC winners we like, but put them into the club based treadmill of league rugby and Euro competition and we'll keep churning out the same underwhelming results. The domestic games of NZ, AUS and SA are all Super franchise based, the Argies who have no domestic game to speak of are heading that way too. Ire, Wal and Scots internationals are pretty much all in regional set ups. Which of the quarter finalists just leaves France with a similar league system to ours. And we saw what happened to them.

    I love our league set up, but it's heading the same way as football, with the national team interests secondary at best. If we're serious about challenging for RWCs we have to change both structure and on field mindsets. Otherwise we're reliant on the accident of birth of a golden generation; in my dotage (a few years yet!) I really don't want to look at 2003 in the same light as 1966. We can't win them all, but we can regularly be in the mix.

    Oh and while the ABs transition period may involve a few defeats my money's that there won't be many and none will be hammerings. They won't fall off a cliff edge as Eng did post 03. Why? Because they've planned it that way.
     
  8. barthelemy

    barthelemy Senior Member

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    France : Rebuild everything :p

    I have big doubt of any big changes for France : the new coach does not send any sign of wanting to change things deeply, the union is organizing a technical meeting to see what went wrong (meeting from which nothing will come out as usual) and clubs are still the same, whinging constantly "we want our players back, we are paying for them, we do not care of the national team, you will have our players 3 days before the start of the next 6 nations and be happy with it".

    I'm really scared for the national team, I think seriously that we will just fight to not have the wooden spoon in years to come 6th nations, we won't come out of the pool stage next world cup as we will be in a much more complicated pool with countries that have improved their rugby during 4 years.

    The only hope I have is the Top 14 becoming a really crappy championship (which would not attract anymore players and sponsors) as we could start on a clean sheet with poorer clubs that won't be able to dictate their way in the future. At least we will maybe find back our flair !

    Or Union to start to contract the players. But Clubs will refuse this I guess, very tiny chances that there would be any agreement on this in the near future. And this is not the only issue in France, it is all the structure of the french rugby that would need to be renewed in order to feed the union with players.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  9. josh21

    josh21 Junior Member

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  10. TheOvalBall

    TheOvalBall Senior Member

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    I miss the RWC 2015 already. :(
    Been so used to for the last month and half.... feels really odd that there is no more...
     
  11. Ospervat

    Ospervat Senior Member

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  12. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    ^^^THIS!

    I agree and hopefully you will be right.

    The replacements for the six high profile retiring players (McCaw, Carter, Mealamu, Conrad Smith, Nonu and Woodcock) are likely to be Sam Cane (31), Aaron Cruden (37), Codie Taylor (4), Malakai Fekitoa (13), Ryan Crotty (15), and Wyatt Crockett (45). They already have 145 tests between them.
     
  13. james5000

    james5000 Senior Member

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    Not deluded but very optimistic :D
     
  14. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    This is why I'm so optimistic for Ireland actually. For the starters who won't be around in 2019; Best, O'Connell, Heaslip (?), Sexton (?), Payne and Bowe we have tonnes of capped replacements in Cronin (48), Strauss (13), Henderson (20), Murphy (14), Madigan (25), Jackson (13), Fitzgerald (35), Olding (2), Earls (46), Gilroy (6).

    Match that with the O'Driscoll effect that will start bringing players in around now, I think the next two world cups could see big things happen for Ireland.
     
  15. Ospervat

    Ospervat Senior Member

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    Richie McCaw, in his life story, writes that the All Blacks couldn’t simply blame Wayne Barnes and shocking officiating for their 2007 World Cup quarter-final defeat to France. He said the squad, player for player, coach for coach and the administration that made all the appointments, had to look inward.

    The debate was robust, the review (private and public) intense and the honesty brutal. McCaw, as captain, said he had failed in his leadership. He added the coaching staff had similarly failed.

    The composure wasn’t there on the field – and it wasn’t there among the coaches. He admitted to an arrogance that was the All Blacks' undoing. The leadership within the team had never planned to play differently, never planned to win a play-off game with a drop goal.

    The All Blacks of 2007, so supremely gifted as individual talents, didn’t believe in winning ugly. They believed in an expansive game and in tries – and they didn’t have respect for or an appreciation for knockout rugby.

    Barnes was too young and inexperienced and froze, wrote McCaw. It wasn’t so much that he cheated the All Blacks, but that he refused to make a decision in the last 40 minutes. Reviews showed the penalty count favouring the All Blacks should have been in double figures. Then there was the forward pass that was missed in the one French try … and … and …

    But nothing was going to change the history books, wrote McCaw. The All Blacks, to a man, had to change if they were to ever produce their best in World Cups.

    And that’s exactly what McCaw’s All Blacks have done since then. It wasn’t without hiccup. The Springboks dominated the All Blacks 3-0 in 2009 but the All Blacks in 2010 balanced that with a three-Tests-to-nil victory.

    McCaw’s All Blacks that started the 2011 World Cup are without dispute the greatest international professional rugby team. They’ve lost just three from 54 Tests (more than half of them played away from home) and they’ve won Grand Slam tours, in France, in Australia, in South Africa and claimed two World Cups, three Rugby Championships and four Bledisloe Cups.

    They’ve smashed every team and individual record along the way and the McCaw/Dan Carter All Blacks era ended at Twickenham with an emphatic win against the Wallabies and with Carter winning his 99th Test, with one draw in the other 13.

    McCaw enjoyed his 110th win as All Blacks captain, his 131st win as an All Black in 148 Tests, in which two were drawn and just 15 lost.

    The greatness of these All Blacks is a result of the damning honesty within the group that failed so spectacularly in 2007.

    It’s that honesty that continues to fail the Springboks and the administration within the South African Rugby Union.

    Heyneke Meyer has been defiant about the state of the Boks in the last year. His Boks have lost nine from 18 but Meyer has been bullish about the potential of a Bok squad he proclaimed could become invincible.

    Meyer spoke of the youthfulness of a squad that had ended third at the World Cup, but just 24 hours later the All Blacks won the World Cup for a second successive time with a match 23 every bit as youthful as those potentially invincible Boks.

    The All Blacks who won the 2011 World Cup final averaged 28 years per man. The match squad successful at Twickenham averaged 28 years per man. Only six of the 2011 World Cup-winning starting XV started in the 2015 final.

    The succession plan for those All Blacks centurions who finished their Test careers at Twickenham has been in a place for the past four years.

    South Africa will be no younger than the All Blacks in 2016 or at the next World Cup. Don’t be fooled by the hollow words of potential and promise.

    Meyer says he wants to serve Bok rugby but also says he won’t go anywhere out of free will because he believes he is the best person to coach the Boks. He says he got his World Cup selections right, that he has no regrets and that his Bok team represents transformation.

    But nine wins from his last 18, which included defeats to Japan, Argentina, Wales, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand suggest he didn’t get his selections right.

    No Rugby Championship titles in four years tells its own story and his starting XV for the World Cup play-offs included two veteran black wingers and a Zimbabwean-born and schooled prop.

    Where’s the honesty within our rugby? Where’s the discussion, the debate and the acknowledgement of what went wrong and where it went wrong.

    The critique of Meyer is professional. It’s never been personal.

    To fix something there has to be recognition it is wrong. The crime is not in asking questions but in Meyer and Saru’s refusal to even entertain questions around the failures.
     
  16. lentenbok

    lentenbok Junior Member

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    I think Olding is one to question his fitness as he seems to pick up a lot of injuries, and if he could stay relatively injury-free.

    Another name to add is Stuart McCloskey, been absolutely great for Ulster so far. I know he's uncapped for Ireland, but imo it's only a matter of time.

    It'll also be interesting to see how some of the Academy players have progressed by 2019 and how many new names would be included. There's definitely a lot of younger talent coming through but the team would have to be one that could work together and maybe change their style of play, instead of hoping players can fill the gaps left by those who would be retiring.
     
  17. The Jones Boy

    The Jones Boy Senior Member

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    Ireland have a rosey future ahead of them. Keeping Schmidt is key to their success.
    Scotland look like they are building.
    France need new management with old ideas, let the players play with freedom and they will give the world a treat as only the French can...
    Argentina are building nicely.
    England- well they have plumbed the depths and things can only get better for them. Bring back Dylan Hartley, Daniel Cipriani and Steffon Armitage.
    Get a captain with a rugby brain. England will recover and come back strong.
    Aussie are in great shape.
    Saffers are a very strong squad.
     
  18. YoungScud

    YoungScud Senior Member

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