What Union could learn from League..

Discussion in 'Rugby League World Cup 2013' started by Sam Owen, Oct 23, 2013.

  1. Sam Owen

    Sam Owen BANNED!!!

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,315
    Location:
    Samoa and Auckland NZ
    Country Flag:

    Samoa

    Club or Nation:

    Blues

    I hope this thread doesnt turn into a which code is better type debate, although its most likely you'll get that. It might get no reponses at all lol.

    Please people, no Union vs League!

    To start things of I'd say Union needs to make up its mind in regards to its general rules. Always law changes and players have to adjust, sometimes they have to do this during international test matches.

    I've always told people that are learning about the two different codes that League is like a game of Draughts and Union is like a game of Chess. However Union changes their laws a lot and they should sort it out so things can be more concrete and simplified. Thats something I think that Union could learn from League.
     
  2. Forum Ad Advertisement

  3. InsaneAsylum

    InsaneAsylum First XV

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,335
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Country Flag:

    Australia

    Club or Nation:

    Rebels

    interesting topic and agree that sometimes the union law changes are frustrating.

    The question is why? I can understand from a safety perspective, but a lot of the law changes seem to stem from people trying to make the sport more appealing to the masses.
     
  4. Draggs

    Draggs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    10,587
    What I liked from leg was that the referee was hardly noticeable it seemed. Apart from the obvious move and all, but really. It seems like rugby is one of the only sports whee fans can name referees. There are some in football, but nowhere near as much as rugby.
     
  5. lynam1104

    lynam1104 First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,231
    Location:
    Singapore
    Country Flag:

    Ireland

    Club or Nation:

    Leinster

    I think the reason that laws have been constantly fiddled with over the last few years is because while rugby has always been a sport where players live on the edge but with the game going pro players push that little bit harder and looking for the exploit, for a lack of a better term. I'm not trying to sat that it's a bad ting I think it could be one of the contributing factors.
     
  6. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    11,856
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    One of the major things is that refs in union are given far less scope to judge whether a tackle (or any other action) is dangerous.
    The laws they are given mean that a lot of binary decisions are made - often meaning that people are penalised for things that clearly are not all that dangerous.

    I know I see a lot of tackles punished that I would personally not complain about had they happened to me.

    Essentially I feel league embraces the fact that it's a contact sport more than some sections of union do.
     
  7. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,714
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Tasman

    Candidate ideas that could be brought into union

    ► Offside lines 5m back from the ruck (and maul)

    ► Reduce penalty kicks to 2 points and dropped goals to 1 point

    ► line-drop out for carried back and grounded or made dead (keep 5m scrum for held-up)

    ► 40-20 kick (in Union it would be a 10-22 kick)

    ► Specialist Assistant Referees/Touch Judges

    ► "not played at" Law for touch
     
  8. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,086
    Location:
    London
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Ulster

    Really don't see how an offside line 5m back from the ruck is enforceable. Smells like a disaster waiting to happen.
     
  9. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    11,856
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    Definitely not from the ruck - although could be a good way to get some conditioning done in training!
    From the Maul it could work.
     
  10. InsaneAsylum

    InsaneAsylum First XV

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,335
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Country Flag:

    Australia

    Club or Nation:

    Rebels

    hey can you explain this one to an amateur like myself? cheers
     
  11. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,714
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Tasman

    In Rugby League, if a player kicks the ball and it strikes an opponent who does not make any attempt to play at the ball, and the ball rebounds off the opponent into touch, the person responsible for the ball going into touch is the kicker, not the opponent.

    [TEXTAREA]ARL Laws of the Game
    SECTION 9 : TOUCH AND TOUCH IN-GOAL

    7. In all aspects of play, a player who does not
    deliberately play at the ball (eg. ricochet or rebound)
    will not be disadvantaged by a consequent restart of
    play when the ball has gone dead or into touch.
    [/TEXTAREA]

    So in league:

    Red 6 kicks the ball into the back of a Blue player and the ball ricochets into touch, Blue have the feed to the scrum, not Red
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
  12. Zed

    Zed Bench Player

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2009
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Perth , WA
    Country Flag:

    Australia

    Club or Nation:

    Force

    Rugby Union is one of the most complex games out there, it's very hard to simplify it. You could change one law that you think is going to simplify it, but it causes issues in other areas. I agree it does need a few tweaks here and there, but it's not that straightforward to simplify it. League is a simple game and probably has half the rules union has, look at the scrum, noone pushes, there's no competing for the ball, it's a non event. You mess with the union laws too much, we'll end up with a hybrid of union & league.
     
  13. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,714
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Tasman

    Here's a good example for you;

    Law 15 outlines the responsibilities options and obligations of all players at the tackle.

    Late in 2007/08, the iRB changed the Law with regard to arriving players at the tackle. They decided that if an arriving player (or the tackler getting to his feet) got his hands on the ball before a ruck was formed, he would be entitled to keep his hands on the ball (previously, the player had to let go). The result of this was a dramatic change in the way the game was played.

    1. Jacklers had a few extra seconds to secure a turnover, leading to
    2. Many more turnovers and the chances of losing the ball when taking it into contact increased dramatically
    3. Coaches/Teams became unwilling to take the ball into contact, especially in their own half, so they chose to kick, and try to gain a turnover in the opponents half
    4. It became more advantageous to NOT have the ball, so aerial ping pong was born.

    The entire way the game is played was changed, because the Law was changed to allow the jackler an extra couple seconds with his hands on the ball.

    But sometimes, you don't even need to change a Law to change something. Sometimes just a change in the interpretation or the way a law is enforced can have a dramatic effect on the game.

    In 2010, SANZAR Referees decided that they needed to address the issues I have outlined above. They decided that they would set a priority order in which things must occur after the tackle. That order was...

    1. Tackle
    2. Tackler(s) MUST release tackled player (to give him the opportunity to place pass or push the ball)
    3. Tackled player, once released by the tackler(s), may place, pass or push the ball, but MUST release it to any jackler/arriving players.

    So that, if a player arrived at the same moment the tackler and tackled player went to ground, and if the tackler was still holding the player, while the arriving player jackles for the ball, the penalty kick would go against the tackler for not releasing. Previously, the tackled player would have been penalised for not releasing the ball. This again changed the emphasis, made turnovers more difficult to get, and the aerial ping-pong virtually disappeared from the game in just one season.

    Both these are great examples of "The Law of Untended Consequences"
     
  14. dasNdanger

    dasNdanger First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,750
    Location:
    US
    Country Flag:

    United States

    Club or Nation:

    New Zealand

    What's a jackler?


    das
     
  15. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,714
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Tasman


    Jackler is a generic term for a player who goes after the ball to win a turnover at a tackle/ruck. The jackler can be...

    1. a tackler who brought the ball-carrier to ground, and has gone to ground himself, released him, got to his feet and is going for the ball.

    2. a tackle assist who brought the ball-carrier to ground but did not go to ground himself and who showed a clear release and went back through the gate to go for the ball.

    3. a player who was standing at the tackle when the ball-carrier was brought to ground at his feet so that he is positioned in the gate and is going for the ball.

    4. a player who has arrived at the tackle through the gate, and is going for the ball.
     
  16. dasNdanger

    dasNdanger First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,750
    Location:
    US
    Country Flag:

    United States

    Club or Nation:

    New Zealand

    Thanks. I actually googled the word, looked it up in dictionaries, and was unable to find it at all. Is it a regional/slang word, or something? I've just never heard it before.


    das
     
  17. Sam Owen

    Sam Owen BANNED!!!

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,315
    Location:
    Samoa and Auckland NZ
    Country Flag:

    Samoa

    Club or Nation:

    Blues

    Yes Im sure its a difficult puzzle to piece together as we've seen for a long time now and I totally understand the different contests in the game and the rules that control that. Makes me wonder with all this chopping and changing, haven't they already messed with the laws of the game too much? Will it ever stop?

    I love both games equally but when Im watching Union, these a few things about Union that can confuse or frustrate me (e.g. Scrum penalties). In the end it's the refs that cops the stick (e.g. Post game interview of refs interpretation excuse for losing).
     
  18. Sam Owen

    Sam Owen BANNED!!!

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,315
    Location:
    Samoa and Auckland NZ
    Country Flag:

    Samoa

    Club or Nation:

    Blues

    I like the last 4. The 10-22 kick would reward tactical kicking. Extra refs, extra eyes, more jobs. I thought not played at was already in place with Union. Line out drop out, good and bad I guess. Those are good examples of what Union could take away from League.
     
  19. j'nuh

    j'nuh First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2011
    Messages:
    4,209
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Gloucester

    That's a fantastic idea. I really like it.

    When players go to charge down a kick and connect with the ball, but only deflect it rather than actually charging it down, if the ball bounces into touch, then the deflection gives possession to the kicker's team. Teams can gain a good 20+ meters from being nearly charged down. It always struck me as odd that the kicker would be rewarded for being incompetent/charger punished for doing something good.

    But I don't like the idea of 10-22s. I always hated the equivalent rule in league, because the defending team hardly has a way of stopping it. Teams already kick to the corner to apply pressure and I like that system.

    And I really, really don't like the idea of being 5m behind the ruck. Changes the game way too fundamentally.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  20. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,714
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Tasman

    But they do have a way of defending against it; they have to be aware of the tactic, and be prepared to put one or two extra players back to defend against it, which will make their front line defences one or two players short, which in turn, might encourage the attacking team to run the ball at the slightly weakened defensive line.
     
  21. TRF_Saints

    TRF_Saints Straight Edge

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,686
    Location:
    St Helens, England
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    St Helens

    Exactly.

    40-20 kicking is very hard to get right. A team with an intelligent full back and wingers will drop back to avoid the danger well in advance. It is an extremely difficult skill to pull off.
     
Enjoyed this thread? Register to post your reply - click here!

Share This Page