What's Argentina's tactic to win the scrum?

[SixteenSixtySix]

Apart from regular practice, what's their key on winning the scrum all the time? Their match with South Africa yesterday baffles me as the RSA pack was a good 50kg heavier if I'm not mistaken but even then they can't win the scrum.

What's their secret?

 

[big ginger 8]

[video=youtube_share;b5F18GLCNcI]http://youtu.be/b5F18GLCNcI[/video]

 

[Big Ewis]

leave weight out of this. Ramiro Herrera (who's very big and weighty) isn't that good a scrummager, and despite being the Tighthead Argentina stood tall in the scrum. It's collective technique, and Marcos Ayerza. With France's props on a big down currently, I would say Argentina have the best scrum in the world atm, quite easily. Ayerza+Figallo.

It's interesting because I remember that 2012 EOYT. That's exactly the frontrow they started when they came to Paris and we had an edge, to the point where Thomas Domingo was asking for a scrum towards the end. How things have changed since then for France..

 

[Canuck]

So much of scrumming is about technique and keeping a low center of gravity. Even in Super Rugby this past season one of the most impressive scrums out of SA was the Lions with Schalk van der Merwe (1.84m, 105 kg) at loosehead and Julian Redelinghuys (1.76m and 110 kg) at tighthead.

 

[Jaguares]

There is much tradition about the scrum in Argentina. All coaches do much emphasis on the technique of the scrum, it's the most important part of the game for the vast majority of the coaches. ALL teams have strong scrum and ALL are proud of their scrum.

In Argentina there is an excessive dedication to the scrum, that's a positive and negative at the same time. It is good because we get many world class forwards and famous around the world as: Patricio Noriega, Enrique "Topo" Rodriguez (Both played for Wallabies), Serafín Dengra, Mario Ledesma, Rodrigo Roncero, Marcos Ayerza and others. Also this has a negative influence on the depth of our backs, and that by doing so much emphasis on the scrum, our backs aren't as deep as it doesn't work it too much, then we have problems getting world class backs.

 

[Big Ewis]

thx for that vid Conrad. Very up close and personal, the real thing, no shiitty music or wtvr. Would've loved to be a prop and experience a scrum, I feel all the muscles that must be at work there, must be such an awesome technical control, reach deep within yourself to get the optimum possible push and all the power available in your body, feel you're on the ascendency with your pack, keep pushing...must feel absolutely fkn awesome.
Unfortunately I was born a magnificent man with svelte allures and fine features...alas, we do not get everything in this world...

 

[Peat]

You can still play as a prop Ewis. You're just not going to enjoy it as much... or at all.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The scrum is more about technique than weight or even strength. In the same way a smaller person can beat a larger one with the aid of martial arts and combat training, so a smaller and less powerful scrummager can beat a larger one through superior technique. The front 3 are the most technical (hence why you aren't allowed to sub in a non-specialist into their positions) and they really determine who wins the scrum more than the other 5 behind them. Generally for scrummaging you want a good low centre of gravity, feet firmly planted on the floor and your upper body straight. Beyond that, I don't know what the fine details of it are having never been in a proper scrum at 15 a side rugby.

Having a scrum that works together well as a unit as opposed to people who aren't used to working together also helps.

 

[Big Ewis]

You can still play as a prop Ewis. You're just not going to enjoy it as much... or at all.

Oh I see, playing smart as$ there eh ? Let me ask you this, smooth talker moon walker, you ever been in a scrum yourself ?! (and managed to control your erection while in there)

 

[Peat]

RR - Not completely true. For the engage, you'll see a lot of props up on the balls of their feet to get as much power as possible - they'll rely on their locks to hold them back and keep them on balance, then to shoot them in.

Also, the locks play an incredibly important part - we've all seen scrums mysteriously improve or detoriate based on the presence of a lock alone. They are supplying most of the power and they've got to be technically correct too. Ideally, a scrum should be flat enough to hold a dinner party on it. When I look, I tend to try and angle my force mainly through the prop. However, for that to work, you need your flanker pushing hard and pushing the prop inwards, or you'll accidentally drive your prop out and cause disaster.

 

[goodNumber10]

RR - Not completely true. For the engage, you'll see a lot of props up on the balls of their feet to get as much power as possible - they'll rely on their locks to hold them back and keep them on balance, then to shoot them in.

Also, the locks play an incredibly important part - we've all seen scrums mysteriously improve or detoriate based on the presence of a lock alone. They are supplying most of the power and they've got to be technically correct too. Ideally, a scrum should be flat enough to hold a dinner party on it. When I look, I tend to try and angle my force mainly through the prop. However, for that to work, you need your flanker pushing hard and pushing the prop inwards, or you'll accidentally drive your prop out and cause disaster.

2nd Row is important, if his position and technique is wrong he can be lifting the prop removing any power or angling him out/in. The Flanker has a similar effect as he can hold the 2nd row straight which in turn affects the prop.... it's a collective excellence that is required and as with most things a scrum is only as good as it's weakest link.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Apart from regular practice, what's their key on winning the scrum all the time? Their match with South Africa yesterday baffles me as the RSA pack was a good 50kg heavier if I'm not mistaken but even then they can't win the scrum.

What's their secret?

Actually, the Argentine team on the weekend was heavier as a a pack than the Springboks, by about 30kg's.

also, Bismarck Du Plessis had a problem with his studs in the beginning and then replaced his boots with longer studs, specifically for scrum time.

Also the Argentine teams pushed prematurely a couple of times, which has been a tactic of them, with the ref penalising them often, which has been an oversight in the past by other refs.

There is not really much of a secret, they go low, and try to wheel the scrum as soon as possible to benefit them. with that said, their most recent tactics have been a bit more on the "cheat" side. but then again, most teams go that route all of a sudden.

 

[Big Ewis]

2nd Row is important, if his position and technique is wrong he can be lifting the prop removing any power or angling him out/in. The Flanker has a similar effect as he can hold the 2nd row straight which in turn affects the prop.... it's a collective excellence that is required and as with most things a scrum is only as good as it's weakest link.

right yeah, I remember reading up on a Sébastien Vahaamahina interview where he says when he arrived in France at pro level he had no technique whatsoever in the scrum. I thought a lock just had to sort of stand there and offer stability and the front row did all the technical work, didn't think about it twice. That interview made me realize the importance of a solid second row in the scrum, but I'd love to know more about it, technique-wise. Hard to find anything about it anywhere, I mean there's stuff here and there but I'd love a documentary type video about scrummaging.

EDIT:

Actually, the Argentine team on the weekend was heavier as a a pack than the Springboks, by about 30kg's.

also, Bismarck Du Plessis had a problem with his studs in the beginning and then replaced his boots with longer studs, specifically for scrum time.

Also the Argentine teams pushed prematurely a couple of times, which has been a tactic of them, with the ref penalising them often, which has been an oversight in the past by other refs.

There is not really much of a secret, they go low, and try to wheel the scrum as soon as possible to benefit them. with that said, their most recent tactics have been a bit more on the "cheat" side. but then again, most teams go that route all of a sudden.

actually I don't know where you got those stats from, here's the first scrum of the match with the stats. Boks indeed quite heavier. I don't see much cheating going on there:

[video=dailymotion;x23wpom]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x23wpom_la-melee-argentine-desosse-celle-de-l-afrique-du-sud_sport[/video]

Ayerza is just monster on the loosehead side.

 

[Big Ewis]

please delete post.

 

[TRF_heineken]

right yeah, I remember reading up on a Sébastien Vahaamahina interview where he says when he arrived in France at pro level he had no technique whatsoever in the scrum. I thought a lock just had to sort of stand there and offer stability and the front row did all the technical work, didn't think about it twice. That interview made me realize the importance of a solid second row in the scrum, but I'd love to know more about it, technique-wise. Hard to find anything about it anywhere, I mean there's stuff here and there but I'd love a documentary type video about scrummaging.

EDIT:



actually I don't know where you got those stats from, here's the first scrum of the match with the stats. Boks indeed quite heavier. I don't see much cheating going on there:

[video=dailymotion;x23wpom]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x23wpom_la-melee-argentine-desosse-celle-de-l-afrique-du-sud_sport[/video]

Ayerza is just monster on the loosehead side.

Yeah my mistake. Sorry about that. I must've heard wrong on the radio. Probably was more to do with the tight head prop or Argentina being a lot heavier that the SA props.

There weren't much cheating in that specific scrum, I agree with you. but that was just the first scrum, and as I have stated Bismarck changed his boots directly after this scrum.

I see on ESPNScrum, that SA had a 100% success rate on winning their own scrums whereas Argentina only had a 75% success rate. And that doesn't include the free kicks given against them for early pushing, and not putting the ball in straight.

 

[smartcooky]

RR - Not completely true. For the engage, you'll see a lot of props up on the balls of their feet to get as much power as possible - they'll rely on their locks to hold them back and keep them on balance, then to shoot them in.

Also, the locks play an incredibly important part - we've all seen scrums mysteriously improve or detoriate based on the presence of a lock alone. They are supplying most of the power and they've got to be technically correct too. Ideally, a scrum should be flat enough to hold a dinner party on it. When I look, I tend to try and angle my force mainly through the prop. However, for that to work, you need your flanker pushing hard and pushing the prop inwards, or you'll accidentally drive your prop out and cause disaster.

Amen to that Peat; its an aspect of scrummaging that a lot of casual observers overlook. They think of scrummaging as being related to just the power of the front row, without realising that the power comes from the whole tight five. Former Canterbury Prop Murray Davie once told me that a powerful front row with weak locks was like having a 350HP V8 with a Volkswagen gearbox behind it.

 

[Amiga500]

Yep, remember watching a local match a few years back - 2 wee young props up against two older fellas with more than a few pints of beer in the belly. The older props must have been about double the weight of the young fellas...

Come the first scrum, the young cubs went straight through the other scrum for a shortcut. All technique.

 

[Big Ewis]

Yep, remember watching a local match a few years back - 2 wee young props up against two older fellas with more than a few pints of beer in the belly. The older props must have been about double the weight of the young fellas...

Come the first scrum, the young cubs went straight through the other scrum for a shortcut. All technique.

the sneaky little basterds...