Who should host The 2023 Rugby World Cup

[Amiga500]

While I've mixed feelings we missed out, I think the process really is a bit of a farce.

Surely it should be something along the lines of:

1. WR establishes clear criteria and evaluation procedure. As much as is possible, these are not qualitative but quantitative.
2. Committee performs an initial evaluation of all candidates who have put their name forward (which will take months). This evaluation report does not recommend any one venue, but does rate each candidate across the criteria established in (1) using the procedure in (1).
3. Voting board and candidates all discuss initial report and request an updated report which addresses queries.
4. Further evaluation by second committee (perhaps of different people) updating and revising initial report to include queries raised in (3).
5. Repeat cycles 3 & 4 until all reasonable queries have been addressed.
6. The voting board at this point decide just how much weight should be put into each criterium that was established in (1). They have to publish and justify their decision based on the ratings within the report issued at the conclusion of step 5.

The timeline from 1 to 6 is not fixed, as it can depend on the quality of step 2 and the number of revision loops required in step 5. Why rush something that you are already 6 years in advance of?


As I see it at the moment, the process is.

1. Committee performs evaluation based on unclear criteria which are not known to candidates until its too late to address them.
2. Candidates are shown report a couple of weeks before final voting, without a chance to have any queries examined properly or have the report revised.
3. Voting board make decision based on this report, which they are aware all candidates dispute, or politics. They don't have to justify their decision in hard facts.

 

[valley commando]

Would have preferred Ireland or South Africa to France but c'est le vie.

France parading Lomu's kids was distasteful and is what crossed them off my list.

This whole bid was quite stale to be honest. Let's hope for more exposure in new countries in the future and less of the buddy system in Europe. Canada/USA would be a fantastic host for the next one.

Lets hope SA can first clean up the political mess both outside and inside of SARU before it gets it again. The president has decimated the economy and I genuinely think the ANC banning international tournaments not too long ago would have put a few Unions off.

EDIT: Also now that we know that the Japanese didn't vote for us can we drop them from Super Rugby now please ?

Thinking of America and Canada hosting a WC fills me with dread we'd be watching 1/2 empty stadiums and that wouldn't do anything to promote the game. Far better to give it to a country/countries who's supporters deserve it, Tonga - Fiji - Samoa.

 

[valley commando]

There's a lot of whinging going on about France getting the WC.
The basic elements for a good tournament are -:
1. Good venues
2. Good weather
3. Easy access
4. Cultural options for fans on non match days
There are plenty of decent stadia in France, the climate is excellent, access is good and once in France the road and rail systems are 2nd to none. Finally culturally there are wonderful opportunities for fans to visit historic sites and also to experience the best food in the world with dishes changing from region to region.
The previous WC rugby in France was excellent this one will be even better.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The way I see it is that:

1. Both the independent recommendation and the voting groups thought Ireland's bid was the weakest and therefore it got the lowest points and votes.
2. In future the independent recommendation will not carry as much weight as it should have, as the nations will still vote how they want to vote no matter the recommendation.
3. All this has done has aggravated nearly everyone except the french. And now there's a lot more questions than answers.

SANZAAR voted for their fellow member, but Japan didn't. So why doesn't SANZAAR reprimand Japan, dump out the Sunwolves and get the Force back in the game?

 

[valley commando]

All that said, we are talking about a RWC in 2027. The US has built a lot of "soccer specific" stadiums that hold 20K to 30K that would be perfect for RWC pool matches.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't set foot into a country with so many 3rd World country ideas such as -:
A. 1/2 the states having no legal age for marriage and ones that do such as New Hampshire where girls can marry at 13 (yes just the girls) it's outrageous that this can happen in a civilised country.
B. The ridiculous backward gun laws (FFS this is no longer the wild west in the 19th century)
C. The idiot that is president.
D The way they ****** up the English language, by sticking Z instead of S and then calling the letter Zee instead of Zed

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why are people saying they should hold it in the Pacific isles? Their biggest stadiums hold 15k,
Imagine holding the final in such a small stadium.
Tickets would have to be ludicrously expensive just to break even, which would price out the local fans, and most travelling fans too.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

There's a lot of whinging going on about France getting the WC.
The basic elements for a good tournament are -:
1. Good venues
2. Good weather
3. Easy access
4. Cultural options for fans on non match days
There are plenty of decent stadia in France, the climate is excellent, access is good and once in France the road and rail systems are 2nd to none. Finally culturally there are wonderful opportunities for fans to visit historic sites and also to experience the best food in the world with dishes changing from region to region.
The previous WC rugby in France was excellent this one will be even better.

The first problem with that being true, is that they should have been up front about it to prevent others from wasting their time.
The second problem with that is that using that criteria you should have 2/3 countries on top all the time, and others should only bid when all of those 2/3 decide not to bid.

Let me use one of your points, just to elaborate: sure, France has more stadia than Ireland, but the ones in Ireland are more than enough to host a world cup.

I mean, think of 2027. Other than the US or Aus/RSA (you could argue a Southern Hemisphere tournament is called for), why would the rest even bother bidding?

I honestly believe WR shot themselves in the foot in terms of credibility with this one. Just watch the post announcement press conference and check what every single non french journalist asks and how he/she asks it. Speaks volume.

And the secret ballot, ffs, don't get me started. This are not people voting for president/legislators. These are people who represent other people (clubs, fans mostly).

 

[TRF_heineken]

There's a lot of whinging going on about France getting the WC.
The basic elements for a good tournament are -:
1. Good venues
2. Good weather
3. Easy access
4. Cultural options for fans on non match days
There are plenty of decent stadia in France, the climate is excellent, access is good and once in France the road and rail systems are 2nd to none. Finally culturally there are wonderful opportunities for fans to visit historic sites and also to experience the best food in the world with dishes changing from region to region.
The previous WC rugby in France was excellent this one will be even better.

Based on your elements, what makes South Africa different? We have the same things France have. Plus we have a lot more varied cultural options. Even when it comes to religion...

 

[valley commando]

The first problem with that being true, is that they should have been up front about it to prevent others from wasting their time.
The second problem with that is that using that criteria you should have 2/3 countries on top all the time, and others should only bid when all of those 2/3 decide not to bid.

Let me use one of your points, just to elaborate: sure, France has more stadia than Ireland, but the ones in Ireland are more than enough to host a world cup.

I mean, think of 2027. Other than the US or Aus/RSA (you could argue a Southern Hemisphere tournament is called for), why would the rest even bother bidding?

I honestly believe WR shot themselves in the foot in terms of credibility with this one. Just watch the post announcement press conference and check what every single non french journalist asks and how he/she asks it. Speaks volume.

And the secret ballot, ffs, don't get me started. This are not people voting for president/legislators. These are people who represent other people (clubs, fans mostly).

Ok so how about each hemisphere vote seperate

Based on your elements, what makes South Africa different? We have the same things France have. Plus we have a lot more varied cultural options. Even when it comes to religion...

One thing is personal safety, I read recently a Springbok playing in France was mugged on a trip back home and that he regularly jumps red lights when driving through certain areas at night, that alone is a major concern.
I'd also be worried if it was a Wales SA final about our boys getting a dose of food poisoning on the eve of the final.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Fair enough

 

[Car]

Would France have even been considered a candidate if they weren't a developed/ Western country? I mean they had a state of emergency for almost two years and it only ended this month. Yet somehow, South Africa is the only country where people seriously discuss the lack of safety? The Saffas dealt with it well during the football World Cup. While they had no terrorist attacks during the Euro, the French did have problems dealing with hooligans back then and terrorism is a bigger threat than muggings etc. are.

While I would have preferred Ireland for subjective reasons, I think South Africa would have deserved it more. What's the point of a recommendation if it ultimately doesn't matter?

I do like France and I've been there many times, I just don't see how it is the best choice.

 

[valley commando]

Would France have even been considered a candidate if they weren't a developed/ Western country? I mean they had a state of emergency for almost two years and it only ended this month. Yet somehow, South Africa is the only country where people seriously discuss the lack of safety? The Saffas dealt with it well during the football World Cup. While they had no terrorist attacks during the Euro, the French did have problems dealing with hooligans back then and terrorism is a bigger threat than muggings etc. are.

While I would have preferred Ireland for subjective reasons, I think South Africa would have deserved it more. What's the point of a recommendation if it ultimately doesn't matter?

I do like France and I've been there many times, I just don't see how it is the best choice.

Why exactly do SA deserve it more ?
The French didn't have trouble with hooligans, soccer did.

 

[Car]

Because they won the recommendation for a reason?
True, but considering how badly they coped with that, I'm not convinced it would be safer than in South Africa, which had no problems during the football World Cup AFAIK.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Why exactly do SA deserve it more ?
The French didn't have trouble with hooligans, soccer did.

1. We got the recommendation
2. We would have been the the next SH nation to host it after New Zealand's 2011 WC
3. We were the back-up choice had Japan not fulfill it's obligations for 2019 WC

Now, I guess it comes down to revenue, and that we were 1.2bn below France. But my question is, during preparation, what would the expenditure have been between SA and France in getting the venues ready?

Our Stadiums are ready to host right now! Cape Town Stadium is getting 5000 extra seats before the 7's tournament in December due to popular demand.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

1. We got the recommendation
2. We would have been the the next SH nation to host it after New Zealand's 2011 WC
3. We were the back-up choice had Japan not fulfill it's obligations for 2019 WC

Now, I guess it comes down to revenue, and that we were 1.2bn below France. But my question is, during preparation, what would the expenditure have been between SA and France in getting the venues ready?

Our Stadiums are ready to host right now! Cape Town Stadium is getting 5000 extra seats before the 7's tournament in December due to popular demand.

France have pretty world class Stadia, it's a selection of Euro 2016 grounds and grounds owned and run by billionaire club owners so not much there.

I think all this shows is that that recommendation process was very flawed and held no credibility, SA got at least 6 votes and probably more off the back of the recommendation and were still blown out of the water by France. World Rugby shouldn't make a recommendation and instead state whether the countries are capable of hosting the tournament and whether there's any substantial risk. It would have read something along the lines of SA - very capable, terrible credit rating and inability to fill out Stadia could result in the tournament not being as profitable or as aesthetically pleasing as possible. Ireland, capable, some Stadia aren't ready yet but a gov. backed bid will likely ensure that risk here is minimal. France, very capable, no obvious concerns.

Once a country is deemed fit to host don't hinder them, without the recommendation I think Ireland would have been hosting this RWC, said recommendation has been proven to have no credibility since SA didn't get it and really putting up a meagre effort in voting given their headstart. The recommendation process achieved nothing apart from killing Ireland's bid.

 

[TRF_heineken]

France have pretty world class Stadia, it's a selection of Euro 2016 grounds and grounds owned and run by billionaire club owners so not much there.

I think all this shows is that that recommendation process was very flawed and held no credibility, SA got at least 6 votes and probably more off the back of the recommendation and were still blown out of the water by France. World Rugby shouldn't make a recommendation and instead state whether the countries are capable of hosting the tournament and whether there's any substantial risk. It would have read something along the lines of SA - very capable, terrible credit rating and inability to fill out Stadia could result in the tournament not being as profitable or as aesthetically pleasing as possible. Ireland, capable, some Stadia aren't ready yet but a gov. backed bid will likely ensure that risk here is minimal. France, very capable, no obvious concerns.

Once a country is deemed fit to host don't hinder them, without the recommendation I think Ireland would have been hosting this RWC, said recommendation has been proven to have no credibility since SA didn't get it and really putting up a meagre effort in voting given their headstart. The recommendation process achieved nothing apart from killing Ireland's bid.

Why have the gruelling 18-month process then at all?? In the end unions voted not entirely based on the bids itself but rather the relationships they have with the bidders, or the connections they've got..

If that recommendation wasn't made, as well as the backlash afterwards by France and Ireland, would the votes have been different?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Why have the gruelling 18-month process then at all?? In the end unions voted not entirely based on the bids itself but rather the relationships they have with the bidders, or the connections they've got..

If that recommendation wasn't made, as well as the backlash afterwards by France and Ireland, would the votes have been different?

To show that you can host a World Cup. What's the point having different unions vote for different reasons? A few will always go for the recommendation, others will not because of political support, relationships or money. A recommendation of this sort will always have inconsistencies and be able to be made look incompetent as happened here, so why bother with it? The recommendation was a poison chalice for SA as their flaws were immediately pointed out and unions listened, it killed Ireland's bid because the NZRU and WRU went straight to SA because of it and France managed to play it perfectly in order to win. A straight shootout without the politics surrounding the bid would have been a far smoother process where the three unions involved would have continued to promote themselves rather than take thinly veiled shots at each other.

 

[TRF_heineken]

To show that you can host a World Cup. What's the point having different unions vote for different reasons? A few will always go for the recommendation, others will not because of political support, relationships or money. A recommendation of this sort will always have inconsistencies and be able to be made look incompetent as happened here, so why bother with it? The recommendation was a poison chalice for SA as their flaws were immediately pointed out and unions listened, it killed Ireland's bid because the NZRU and WRU went straight to SA because of it and France managed to play it perfectly in order to win. A straight shootout without the politics surrounding the bid would have been a far smoother process where the three unions involved would have continued to promote themselves rather than take thinly veiled shots at each other.

I think all 3 have shown that they can host the world cup. They showed that already when Italy withdrew. Why bother with the shenanigans and ridicule afterwards?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think all 3 have shown that they can host the world cup. They showed that already when Italy withdrew. Why bother with the shenanigans and ridicule afterwards?

Aye, that's exactly my point. Making a recommendation and allowing two weeks of lobbying afterwards will always attract that.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Aye, that's exactly my point. Making a recommendation and allowing two weeks of lobbying afterwards will always attract that.

But then how do you go about it in future?

Ireland complained that the recommendation doesn't give them enough time, or that it's release was too late. But then there is the lobbying afterwards that gave other unions more time to rally and snatch up unsecured votes by way of politics, bribes, or family connections...