Who will have the choker tag if NZ win the cup

[mimic]

Ireland imo..

All the talk was that they would match it with the All Blacks.. Now they're struggling to go toe to toe with Georgia..

O'Gara and D'Arcy was all the rage, and saying they weren't a one man team.

They've also choked in past world cup matches. Anyone remember the match they should've won against Australia?

 

[melon]

Regardless of NZ's result, Ireland will be labeled chokers...of that I'm certain.

Seriously, they have played **** house. I'm sure many of the players and staff are embarrassed as would be much of the Irish public and all supporters.

 

[shazbooger]

That is the definition of choking. To choke is to not show up when it counts, and the world cup is certainly where it counts. [/b]

Choking is being unable to perform because of Nerves. Nerves havent been a problem for us, we simply havent played at all. We were hammered by Scotland and effectively lost against Italy in meaningless matches before the tournament. We played crap with no pressure on us at all. We've done the same during the world cup. Maintaining a consistently **** level of play.

What about the last 5 years when they were expected to win the 6N? Choke the chunch games against France this year (sound familiar?), Wales in 2005, France last year, England in 2003... Ahem. [/b]

Now there you may have a point ....... but ............ you could same about England before they won the WC. It took them about four years to win a grand slam, but that aint relevent to this debate either. Grand Slams are not easy to come by and Ireland were never clear and away the best team.

You could also look at the England game this year. The Ireland team was under more pressure for this match then on any other occasion in the History of Irish rugby. Where we could easily have folded, we didnt, we excelled and put a record score on you. Just wouldnt be in your personal interest to look at that though would it.

I'm not arguing with the fact that we are **** and I'm sure Ireland have been effected by Nerves in the past ( as have all nations). I just dont think its down to nerves time round.

 

[An Tarbh]

Reading through this thread some poeple do have an interesting definition of choking, Ireland haven't choked, they've been ****, there's a massive difference.

People mention the England game in 2003, that day they were awesome, no team on the planet would have competed with them that day, that was the finest performance under the Woodward stewardship so we didn't choke on that day.

In 2005 we lost key players at the wrong time, we don't have the strength in depth of the top nations and so are hit harder than other teams.

2006, Paris, we were shite in the first half, made mistake after mistake and gifted the French 40 points, it was never a case of building a lead and throwing it away, you could make more of a case for the French choking in the second half of that game, as they did against Wales the same year.

The strongest case for Ireland choking was against France in Dublin this year but again without O'Driscoll and Stringer but again defensive mistakes cost us dear, the lead was never big enough for us in that game to throw away.

So having dealt with that and getting back to the question of who will have the choker tag, I would have make the argument for the French, they certainly have the form, having choked in 1999 and 2003, 1999 they put in an awesome performance against NZ and just don't show up in the final, that's choking, 2003, they breeze through to the semi-finals and freeze again against England, and even this tournament they choked on the opening night, they just didn't turn up against Argentina and I wouldn't be surprised if they beat NZ in Cardiff only to lose to the Aussies in the semis.

 

[shtove]

What about the last 5 years when they were expected to win the 6N? Choke the chunch games against France this year (sound familiar?), Wales in 2005, France last year, England in 2003... Ahem. [/b]

Lansdowne Road 03 wasn't a choke - England were just magnificent. Hats off.

Anyway, Ireland aren't out, and could still face the ABs in Cardiff.

Choking means you had your chance in the knock outs and ended up in a coffin. The ABs should have a hard time against good SA and Aus teams, but a loss to France or England will seal the reputation.

A loss to Ireland will cause volcanic eruptions in the South Seas and a world wide stock market crash. You have been warned.

 

[TRUE LEGND]

A loss to Ireland will cause volcanic eruptions in the South Seas and a world wide stock market crash. You have been warned. [/b]

That win will also be a new record for Ireland as well... FIRST TIME IN HISTORY

 

[scuubasteve]

Haha, interesting talking down some of Ireland's apparent chokes as being something else!

With phrases like "losing players at the wrong time" ala Umaga in WC03. Or losing to a team that no one could have matched on that particular day" ala France 2nd half WC99. Reeks of NZers trying unsuccessfully to deny their god given right to the tag.

Once you get labelled a choker it doesn't matter how you talk it down, you choked. Its the risk you run for talking your team up (Ireland pre-tournament).

Talk it up + Subsequently losing = Choked

So basically you've gotta never talk it up, like Argentina
Or not lose, like Australia

Ireland might be currently ****, but they still choked. And not just for one game. They're rolling round on the ground, blue in the face, jesturing to someone to give them a kick in the stomach to dislodge whatever seminal discharge EOS has managed to lodge in there.

Heck, maybe Argentina will kick them in just the right spot next weekend and they'll come right for the quarters. The question then to people saying Ireland are chokers, is are they still chokers if they beat Argentina next weekend and make it into the quarters?

I say no.

As for An Tarbhs comments on the french, you might be onto something there. But fortunately for France, their choking is put down to "typical french unpredictablity". Which is basically like saying a child is not a little @#*% because he's naughty sometimes, instead he has A.D.D. becuuse he's naughty all the time. "Mad" Bernard Laporte anyone?

 

[shazbooger]

Reading through this thread some poeple do have an interesting definition of choking [/b]

Very much so, its a convenient definition alright, though seems to change to suit their arguement.



One set of facts are thrown in, refuted, then your told it doesnt matter what you say, or whether they are right or wrong. Once you get labelled a choker you choked. Unless of course you win your next match and everythings okay again? Makes perfect sense. Right along with the fact that when Ireland talk it up and lose were chokers (previous form is simply ignored). France talk it up and lose and they are just "unpredictable". Absolutely class that.

France did choke against Argentina. Their form coming into the tournament was excellent and they fluffed the opening game. I dont think they are chokers though. I think it happened once, its done, and they are right back on track now.

 

[shazbooger]

New Zealand of course.

What a stupid question.[/b]

bumpity bumpity bump bump bump. I do believe I told you so.!

 

[RC]

Talk it up + Subsequently losing = Choked
[/b]

Defined PERFECTLY by a New Zealander himself.

 

[C A Iversen]

I agree, we choked yet again. Although RC seriously, we are being mocked by the Welsh?

The reason you guys aren't even in the quarters is a loss to one of the poorest resourced teams in world rugby. You guy's also did that in 1991. For a so-called rugby nation, you guys have had something lodged in the back of your team's throat for decades now.

You guys are only really expected to make semi's at best and are left gagging just trying to make it out of the pool.

I'll cop it from the nations still in the cup, but you guys. You guys are preaching from........where exactly?

 

[Bullitt]

That post is from the same camp as these people who say "you shouldn't criticise such-and-such-a-player because you couldn't do any better yourself."

The fact the Welsh are taking the mickey is exactly beause the ABs, then in turn everybody else, expected them to do so well. As you say yourself, nobody expected Wale to get further then the 1/4s or semis as they know they're shite, there's not much to take the **** out of.

 

[C A Iversen]

True, your right. Just because Wales have become a third world rugby backwater doesn't mean they can't comment like any fan. mind you I never said they couldn't I only meant that such comments from them are on a par with their performance.

At least the All Blacks will be back to the most important thing in a few months. Atop the World rankings.

Good point though Mite, and well done the English, those who over the last two world cups have earned a good AB mocking.


P.S. I wouldn't have said anything nasty about Wales and certainly didn't when they lost to Fiji. Until we got mocked above, by a nation that should tour New Zealand and play our 2nd div provincial sides to get their confidence back. Or would they. They can even bring their NZ coach if they get one, lol.

 

[RC]

CA, I suggest you get off your high horse, mate.
You are more than welcomed to mock wales - hell, i am. We are in a right bloody state and it's not a pleasant experience for a Welshman/woman.
But denying me from commenting on your country because of my nationality? Sounds a little like racism. If I was English, I'd be allowed to mock New Zealand right now? I have english Aunties and Uncles, so do i get at least a little "mocking time"??
You're a bloody joke.
Please, by all means deny the Welsh players and coaching staff the humour of calling your boys chokers (for the very reason you stated), but as fans, you, my friend have not a leg to stand on.

Damn, you boys have talked it up for such a long time and we couldn't deny that you were justified to do so, but you fell at one of the earliest hurdles - and if you go about talking big and then falling big i'm gonna let you have it. You made it one match further than Wales? Wales are 10th in the world you're 1st!!!
Think about it...
We as Welsh haven't been saying, "We're through to the semi's. It's happening this year."
We all acknowledged that - given our past 2 years - we could be in serious trouble. But we know what our team is capable of and thought we could make it to the quarters. I mean the last time we reached the semis was the last time you won the world cup. Funny.

I have given a heartfelt response in the France vs New Zealand thread and i meant what i said in there (in case you're not gonna read it, it's about the respect i have for you as a country).
But if you want to keep dealing out the cheap shots all day fine by me.
I can keep these "choke jokes" going for another 4 years.

<_<

 

[scuubasteve]

I guess we can all realise now that this thread was all one big rhetorical question!!

Maybe it' s AB policy to lose one big game every 4years and to trick the rest of the world, thus allowing you to win all the games in between? Ah dilusion, I love you.

More seriously, I'm also starting to wonder if NZ's facination with 'sexy' rugby prevents it from winning close knockout games? Wales could actually be seen in a similar light really.

It's kinda like...a school prom. Do you take the good looking girl, hope you get lucky; she puts out and you score big? Or, do you take the ugly one and shorten your odds for climbing that final hurdle?

In this case NZ appears to have been gunning for the f@#*&ng head cheerleader?!

Me personally, I think we should have maybe just stuck to the highschool slut style.

More like South Africa or England?

Go with a sure-fire method where you know exactly what you're gunna get. And apparently get some good old fashioned action when it counts!

Not the NZ way, where you try so hard all night (or 4years) for that sexy girl, but at the end of the night you start to feel those nerves again and realise that you've bitten off too much. You went too sexy and that trophy is walking out the door without you...


It's also fair to say that when you start talking yourself up, as NZ appeared to do, that you ain't going to get any help from a wingman (as alot of the posts on this forum from non NZers shows).


From a Kiwi perspective losing like this is VERY hard to take.
When it seems like you (as a team) can't do anything more to prepare, and still can't win the damn thing, then you really get a feeling of utter helplessness.

Its basically exactly the same feeling as having someone close to you die. And this has actually been studied and proven to be true by a NZ psychologist (no lies)! So on the defence of some of my countrymen, baiting them on this issue is very similar to baiting someone after a sibling has died (maybe throug choking) which they could nothing to prevent. Invariably your going to get some very emotional (and angry) responses.

If you enjoy that sort of thing then by all means carry on. But for alot of Kiwis on this forum, me included, this will be one of the worst days in memory (we take rugby THAT seriously).

So sure, we (NZ) give others a hard time, but lets all try to keep it as mature as we can. You've (NH) earned some much deserved respect from Australasian fans, so try to be humble winners as NZers are, in most cases.

And so concludes my mourning (publicly anyway). Thanks for reading if you've managed to get this far.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

but the All blacks have now lost two big games this year

 

[scuubasteve]

Haha. They still managed to take the trophy home (Bledisloe) though. From what was actually a very 'highschool slut' style of game (Eden Park test). I'm telling you I'm a changed man, care of the AB's.

After all, winning ugly is still winning! Hang on, who am I kidding?! I wouldn't trade the past 4 years of sexual domination for that French game!! Haha.


On a side note. This has all the makings of the most memorable world cup yet! Upsets make for more lasting (and painful) memories. And I'd love to see some more as well, mainly to help me forget this one. Now for Argentina to rock South Africas world.


On a more positive note, it's hard not to agree that this tournament is now more global than ever. Looking back now, there were clearly at least 6 contenders for the ***le. Thats got to be a good thing for world Rugby looking ahead.

 

[RC]

Hey, New Zealand may have taken the headcheerleader to the prom - but Wales didn't even get a date. Wales stayed at home and watched 'Friends' with his younger sister!

It's going to be debateable as to whether or not i felt the same when Wales got knocked out as you did - but i can relate to you guys.
I honestly throw the "choke jokes" around at the minortiy, the ones who stood truly arrogant in the build up to the RWC and when the good folk of NZ get caught up in it then it's not nice to witness what your actions have done (especially considering what you've been through).
But there's that smaller, more petty man that lives inside a lot of us that just wants to milk these jabs and direct them at people like Chiro (the minority).
And it's that little guy that is going to make me go over into Chiro's own little humiliation thread and milk it for all its worth.

We stand good though. I learnt over the weekend (whilst working in cardiff) that a lot of New Zealanders still respect Welsh rugby, still respect WORLD rugby.
It's a real wake up call to get this POV from a majority when you've been bombarded with bullshit and belittling remarks from certain idiots for so long. When they pretty much convince you that they despise and have no respect for any other country in the world. You forget that you can't generalise an opinion especially not amongst a community 3 million large.

 

[nam97]

Hey, New Zealand may have taken the headcheerleader to the prom - but Wales didn't even get a date. Wales stayed at home and watched 'Friends' with his younger sister!

It's going to be debateable as to whether or not i felt the same when Wales got knocked out as you did - but i can relate to you guys.
I honestly throw the "choke jokes" around at the minortiy, the ones who stood truly arrogant in the build up to the RWC and when the good folk of NZ get caught up in it then it's not nice to witness what your actions have done (especially considering what you've been through).
But there's that smaller, more petty man that lives inside a lot of us that just wants to milk these jabs and direct them at people like Chiro (the minority).
And it's that little guy that is going to make me go over into Chiro's own little humiliation thread and milk it for all its worth.

We stand good though. I learnt over the weekend (whilst working in cardiff) that a lot of New Zealanders still respect Welsh rugby, still respect WORLD rugby.
It's a real wake up call to get this POV from a majority when you've been bombarded with bullshit and belittling remarks from certain idiots for so long. When they pretty much convince you that they despise and have no respect for any other country in the world. You forget that you can't generalise an opinion especially not amongst a community 3 million large.
[/b]

Pretty much all Kiwi's are huge fans of World Rugby. Heck, my worry this year was that we would trounce everyone and make the game look like a joke. But boy was I wrong, and you know what.. in a way I'm not overly concerned now as the game is showing a real sense of unpredictability which is what it needs.

Yes, I'm still shattered and have absolutely had my whole world rocked in the space of a day and I doubt my nerves will calm down until I see the last of this World Cup. Also, you must realise most Kiwi fans on here use this to talk ourselves up with the safety of a computer screen. 99% of our real supporters would acknowledge the game is also played off the shores of New Zealand.

 

[Lardinho]

yes I think the fascination with sexy rugby is a problem for the Kiwis to be honest. For all the talk of doing what it takes to win, then turning around and saying "I'm glad we didn't drop a goal in the last 20, I don't want to play a boring style like NH teams, you suck!".

Well the truth of the matter is, you don't have to play boring rugby all the time, its just good to know when to be able to switch. NZ were playing "boring" rugby by pick n charge near the French line so certainly they should have tried the equally as boring drop goal a few times in those last minutes. This isn't an anti-NZ rant though, as any of you who have read my other posts know, I sympathise with the Kiwis who I thought deserved to win against the French. Even though the French were far more effective when they got the ball, NZ were just awesome at the breakdown, feroscious as ever. I wouldn't say the AB's choked, they just need to get over this "style is all that matters" ******** otherwise they will never win the gritty games. And by Christ, they certainly are the most talented team at this world cup.

Talking of chokers, although not RWK chokers... myself as an Englishman held that mantle under Woodward until we finally won the slam in 2003, we lost the final match in the 6 nations, for which we would have taken the Grand Slam... was it 4 times? could have been 5 lol