Why are Europeans so obsessed with Scrums ?

[nightmarehitter]

For the last 15 - 20 years of reading press articles, watching and listening to media interviews and expert opinions out of Europe, im utterly amazed by how important England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales see the role of the scrum. Its like you guys think Rugby games are won from there and that is where the heart of the battle is.

Im a kiwi and of course a die hard All blacks supporter. Over the years I have noticed that the coaching staff, players, media don't really give a dam about the scrum. In fact I have noticed that the NZ rugby mentality is that they only train to be able to maintain to own ball and there is much less focus and time spent on dominating the scrum. If you notice the All Blacks have not been that great in scrumming down in over 20 years. The time and energy has been spent on making sure the pack knows their roles in the breakdown and developing the ball skills as such in passing at the line, hitting holes at speed, recycling and more importantly even creating!

For me this shows the major difference in mindset between the way the All Blacks and Southern Hemisphere teams play and their counterparts do in Europe.

Also if you notice that since Argentina have been introduced to the championship, even their passionate obsession and focus on setting the scrum has substantially shifted to developing their forwards skill sets in other areas.

Its an interesting observation, what are your thoughts?

 

[nickdnz]

To be fair I think in the last 20 years we have had plenty of world class scrums and props. Olo Brown, Craig Dowd, Carl Hayman, Tony Woodcock, Kees Meuews were all excellent world class scrummagers - I rate Hayman as the best ever in my book.

I also disagree Ireland and Scotland have historically put a great deal of emphasis on scrums - England, France and Italy certainly; especially France.

As a former prop I certainly have an appreciation of the importance of a scrum - and I agree we certainly don't use it as much as an attacking weapon in terms of push and drives outside the 5m line. However the reason for that is the All Blacks have arguably the most clinical back-line in rugby, and so can generally generate points better from the set-piece than from an accumulation of penalties. For other countries a dominant scrum is a way to get ascendancy through an accumulation of penalties.

 

[RoosTah]

I'd argue that this attitude is really most prevelant in NZ and Australia, with South Africa and Argentina still being fairly obsessive over their scrums.

That said, NZ manage this balance far better than Australia and frankly everyone else by a fair margin.

In my view though the scrum is overly emphasised in general and frankly in the post match wash up you often see closer analysis show a lot of scrum infringements to be wrongly called by the referees, and so I personally think unless its on the 5 metre line scrum infringements should only be given as free kicks.

 

[Granny-knows]

Hi nightmarehitter, I honestly belief that you are mistaken that All Blacks and Southern hemisphere team don't take the scrum very seriously. I remember the complaints by various media pundits that the Italians were illegal when the AB's were under severe pressure in the scrum 6/7 years ago ( 2009 ?). The final score in that game was 20-6 to the ABs and before the game many thought that the winning margin would be 30 points. The AB's usually have a bigger front row then most other teams and a more mobile locks. The effort required to scrum now is greater with the pause- touch- engage as the scrum lasts noticeably longer. ( I think it is 50% longer ). If you have powerful forwards you want to grind the opposition into exhaustion as defences are so good across the park, hence the counter attack on turnover ball.

 

[RoosTah]

Hi nightmarehitter, I honestly belief that you are mistaken that All Blacks and Southern hemisphere team don't take the scrum very seriously. I remember the complaints by various media pundits that the Italians were illegal when the AB's were under severe pressure in the scrum 6/7 years ago ( 2009 ?). The final score in that game was 20-6 to the ABs and before the game many thought that the winning margin would be 30 points. The AB's usually have a bigger front row then most other teams and a more mobile locks. The effort required to scrum now is greater with the pause- touch- engage as the scrum lasts noticeably longer. ( I think it is 50% longer ). If you have powerful forwards you want to grind the opposition into exhaustion as defences are so good across the park, hence the counter attack on turnover ball.

They don't not take it seriously, I think nightmarehitter's point was more that commentary surrounding games and the tactical focus of coaches doesn't emphasise it to the exclusion of other skills to the extent that they arguably do in the north.

All sides want to dominate the set-piece, but when you look at how the All Blacks play it's pretty clear that they see the development of all round skills for their forwards as equally important. That's why the All Blacks forwards are just as likely to be running in support or making offloads as backs, whilst in the north it's more common to see forwards lagging behind and lacking general ball skills.

 

[ncurd]

It would be interesting to see stats on how many scrums there are per game in an AP game vs an SR game. I wouldn't be surprised due to when the season is played and conditions for there to be more knock ons in NH rugby leading to more scrums and therefore greater emphasis.

 

[Granny-knows]

They don't not take it seriously, I think nightmarehitter's point was more that commentary surrounding games and the tactical focus of coaches doesn't emphasise it to the exclusion of other skills to the extent that they arguably do in the north.

All sides want to dominate the set-piece, but when you look at how the All Blacks play it's pretty clear that they see the development of all round skills for their forwards as equally important. That's why the All Blacks forwards are just as likely to be running in support or making offloads as backs, whilst in the north it's more common to see forwards lagging behind and lacking general ball skills.

I agree that the skill levels in the SH teams are better across the field then the NH. It is often a case of playing conditions dictating a more conservative style of play. Look at the Baby Blacks and some would argue that they are not in the semifinals of the U20"s Cup because they tried to throw the ball around. The NH forwards need to improve their skill sets. But having played in England and France I believe they will want to add the skill set to traditional power. Front foot ball at speed is what all backs want.

 

[profitius]

Slower paced game, wet conditions and tighter matches meaning penalties are more important. A strong scrum might not win you a game but a weak scrum will lose you a game. Its less important in the SH where the action is more end to end with more tries, so they don't need to rely as much on penalties.

To be fair I think in the last 20 years we have had plenty of world class scrums and props. Olo Brown, Craig Dowd, Carl Hayman, Tony Woodcock, Kees Meuews were all excellent world class scrummagers - I rate Hayman as the best ever in my book.

I also disagree Ireland and Scotland have historically put a great deal of emphasis on scrums - England, France and Italy certainly; especially France.

As a former prop I certainly have an appreciation of the importance of a scrum - and I agree we certainly don't use it as much as an attacking weapon in terms of push and drives outside the 5m line. However the reason for that is the All Blacks have arguably the most clinical back-line in rugby, and so can generally generate points better from the set-piece than from an accumulation of penalties. For other countries a dominant scrum is a way to get ascendancy through an accumulation of penalties.

Indeed. It was only a few years back that Ireland got serious about scrums. John Hayes and Mike Ross have played about 95% of Irelands 6 nations matches at tighthead since the 6N started. And looking at those two, Hayes had freakish strength and only started to play from after a year in NZ when he was about 20. Ross wasn't wanted by Munster and left Ireland at about 24 or 25 years of age. He had to go to Harlequins to get to play professional rugby. Only after an Australian style humiliation against England in 2010/2011 did the IRFU get serious about scrumaging.

 

[Colombia]

If you watched the series between Australia & England, you would see the importance of the scrum.

 

[slowprop]

For the last 15 - 20 years of reading press articles, watching and listening to media interviews and expert opinions out of Europe, im utterly amazed by how important England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales see the role of the scrum. Its like you guys think Rugby games are won from there and that is where the heart of the battle is.?

Long may it continue. Rugby is a game for all shapes and sizes and we enjoy scrums as an integral part of the game. I am quite sure the Australians would have liked the scrum reduced to a Rugby league style restart especially when they were getting pushed all over the field.

Anyway I don' t agree about it only being important to Europeans. The South Africans have always been keen on a scrum and Argentina are as well although they are definitely developing a better all round game.

 

[nickdnz]

Hi nightmarehitter, I honestly belief that you are mistaken that All Blacks and Southern hemisphere team don't take the scrum very seriously. I remember the complaints by various media pundits that the Italians were illegal when the AB's were under severe pressure in the scrum 6/7 years ago ( 2009 ?). The final score in that game was 20-6 to the ABs and before the game many thought that the winning margin would be 30 points. The AB's usually have a bigger front row then most other teams and a more mobile locks. The effort required to scrum now is greater with the pause- touch- engage as the scrum lasts noticeably longer. ( I think it is 50% longer ). If you have powerful forwards you want to grind the opposition into exhaustion as defences are so good across the park, hence the counter attack on turnover ball.

On that very specific game; it's because around 20 minutes of play was wasted on scrum resets because Martin Castrogiovanni was boring in, and Dickinson (who never refereed at that level again), kept resetting and eventually awarding Italy for his misunderstanding of the rules. It cost Wyatt Crockett's early career. It was also a god awful game to watch - and had Tialata incorrectly sin-binned in the 78th minute. From memory it was also the debut of Ben Smith, Tamati Ellison and Mike Delaney.

 

[smartcooky]

On that very specific game; it's because around 20 minutes of play was wasted on scrum resets because Martin Castrogiovanni was boring in, and Dickinson (who never refereed at that level again), kept resetting and eventually awarding Italy for his misunderstanding of the rules. It cost Wyatt Crockett's early career. It was also a god awful game to watch - and had Tialata incorrectly sin-binned in the 78th minute. From memory it was also the debut of Ben Smith, Tamati Ellison and Mike Delaney.

Yep.

That god-awful display of refereeing at San Siro cost Dickinson his career. He never refereed a 6N match or Tri-Nations match again. He also was dropped off WR's list for EOYT and June Tour matches, and only refereed two matches involving Tier 1 teams again;

New Zealand v Fiji (where the match was hastily arranged and there were no other officials available)
Argentina v France (where he was a late replacement for Steve Walsh who pulled out due to injury)

The incorrectly issued yellow card to Neemia Tialata was overturned by the IRB Disciplinary Committee, and expunged from his record. In some ways that was the final nail in the coffin of Dickinson's career.

 

[Colombia]

On that very specific game; it's because around 20 minutes of play was wasted on scrum resets because Martin Castrogiovanni was boring in, and Dickinson (who never refereed at that level again), kept resetting and eventually awarding Italy for his misunderstanding of the rules. It cost Wyatt Crockett's early career. It was also a god awful game to watch - and had Tialata incorrectly sin-binned in the 78th minute. From memory it was also the debut of Ben Smith, Tamati Ellison and Mike Delaney.

The ABs were humiliated by Italy for a good 10 minutes, Dickinson of the woeful scrummaging nation of Australia didn't have the cohones to award the penalty try.

Henry & Hansen thoroughly embarrassed, couldn't accept it and dragged the Kiwi Paddy O'Brien to a hotel room to bully him over it from where they got their conciliatory line of the Italians were cheating, O'Brien selling out the typically useless Antipodean ref in the process.

Any other ref, and NZ would have been under their own posts. But to be fair, it was much more amusing to see Italy keep them under the pump.

 

[Nubiwan]

One might argue back that Southern Hemisphere teams are so obsessed with not kicking 3 points - like ever? While its a big fan pleaser, I have literally seen New Zealand provincial sides inside the 22, with seconds on the clock, trailing by a point, tap and run penalties. I don't get it. They would rather try for a the 5 than take an easy drop goal to win the match.

Scrums are important. As a former 9 and 10, if your side cant scrummage, then you can look forward to a long day at the office behind your pack, or chasing the opposition.

I love southern hemisphere rugby. 6 Nations and European league rugby pales by comparison, but I still get shocked how little some Southern Hem teams put the boot to ball when it is an easier option.

 

[Tony Manx]

One might argue back that Southern Hemisphere teams are so obsessed with not kicking 3 points - like ever? While its a big fan pleaser, I have literally seen New Zealand provincial sides inside the 22, with seconds on the clock, trailing by a point, tap and run penalties. I don't get it. They would rather try for a the 5 than take an easy drop goal to win the match.

Scrums are important. As a former 9 and 10, if your side cant scrummage, then you can look forward to a long day at the office behind your pack, or chasing the opposition.

I love southern hemisphere rugby. 6 Nations and European league rugby pales by comparison, but I still get shocked how little some Southern Hem teams put the boot to ball when it is an easier option.

Watched the so called super rugby and got bored....... But then I am an old bugger and this new fangled running game is all strange to me!! As is the whole of the defensive team lined up in a straight line mind you.....

Did love David Duckham and also Richard Sharpe who was a running fly half (as 10s are called in civilized company)!!

 

[smartcooky]

The ABs were humiliated by Italy for a good 10 minutes.

What a load of complete and utter bo11ocks

Castrogiovani, (and before him Fernandez-Rouyet and Perugini), were scrummaging illegally all day, binding on their opponents chest and/or lower arm, boring in on the NZ hooker, pulling down and collapsing. Dickinson was utterly incompetent when it came to managing the scrum. He didn't have a clue what was going on, and that is something he had previous form for.

If you think Dickinsoin was refereeing correctly, then explain

1. Why was Tialata's yellow card rescinded by the IRB

2. Why was Dickinson given a bollocking for his performance by the then head of IRB referees

3. Why did Dickinson have to attend mandatory remedial scrum management training in 2010.

4. Why did his international career effectively end after that match (no more 6N, no more 3N and he was overlooked for the RWC in 2011)

Dickinson of the woeful scrummaging nation of Australia didn't have the cohones to award the penalty try

Any other ref, and NZ would have been under their own posts

Wrong. Any other ref would have penalised the Italian front row for their illegal scrummaging.

Henry & Hansen thoroughly embarrassed, couldn't accept it and dragged the Kiwi Paddy O'Brien to a hotel room to bully him over it from where they got their conciliatory line of the Italians were cheating, O'Brien selling out the typically useless Antipodean ref in the process.

More bo11ocks. Hansen and Henry did not do any dragging. O'Brien went of his own accord.

By the way its seven years later and Paddy still has his career with WR in the plum job as head of World Rugby Sevens referees in the lead up to the world's greatest sporting event, the Olympic Games. Meanwhile, Dickinson continued to referee at domestic level until he missed RWC selection in for the 2011 event, when it must have become apparent even to him that he was off the radar permanently for test selection. He retired in 2011.
'
San Siro had the potential to be a great occasion to promote the game in Italy, but the crowd of 81,000 who came along were instead treated to the "Stuart Dickinson Dog an Pony Show" . What a shame such a great opportunity was spoiled by an incompetent referee

 

[Aotearoa_]

The ABs were humiliated by Italy for a good 10 minutes, Dickinson of the woeful scrummaging nation of Australia didn't have the cohones to award the penalty try.

Henry & Hansen thoroughly embarrassed, couldn't accept it and dragged the Kiwi Paddy O'Brien to a hotel room to bully him over it from where they got their conciliatory line of the Italians were cheating, O'Brien selling out the typically useless Antipodean ref in the process.

Any other ref, and NZ would have been under their own posts. But to be fair, it was much more amusing to see Italy keep them under the pump.

Some of your anti-NZ posts on here are disgusting and untrue, what sort of stupid assumptions are these? Got any proof to back it up?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

NZ poster creates thread saying NH are obsessed with scrums.

Then like half the posts nearly are from NZ posters whining about scrums.

 

[Nubiwan]

Watched the so called super rugby and got bored....... But then I am an old bugger and this new fangled running game is all strange to me!! As is the whole of the defensive team lined up in a straight line mind you.....

Did love David Duckham and also Richard Sharpe who was a running fly half (as 10s are called in civilized company)!!

Loved Duckham "of the massive over elaborate side step" me. 1974 was when I started rugby during the great welsh years. Fancied meself a bit of a Gareth Edwards. I grew up calling them stand offs. But most of the time my forwards would refer to him as the useless c%&t in the 10 shirt, so we'd just run it from the back row all the time.

My favourite collectors item is a picture of myself and JPR after a match about 10 years ago.

 

[Rockradar]

NZ poster creates thread saying NH are obsessed with scrums.

Then like half the posts nearly are from NZ posters whining about scrums.

Because in NZ we like to think our shlt doesn't stink until a countryman farts and we realise their ass stinks just as bad. Then it's safe to come out and start discussing stuff only homos like looking at.

I don't think Europeans are anymore obsessed than we are. It's not like you see European halfbacks feeding the ball through prop forwards legs during hack squats. Obsessed my ass.