Why does it still happen year after year?

[Lardinho]

As someone who is half English, half Welsh, I've always enjoyed the rugby and look forward to the autumn internationals.

However, there were a few things of note that I'd like to discuss.

Firstly, Barnes is still a complete tool, and him jizzing over the new Aussie scrum half was just pathetic, he even mentioned Nick Farr-Jones at one point and what the hell is up with that? The guy needs to be playing for another 10 years before he should be mentioned in the same breath as Farr-Jones, however talented he is.

Secondly, how is it that again and again, the New Zealanders get away with murder? It really is so boring to see the same thing happen when anyone plays New Zealand. This isn't something I'm talking about because I was annoyed that Wales lost, I think the Kiwis played better and it was a fair result. Equally, I though the Aussies were better than England, not much, but again a fair result and i have not many gripes about that match and no complaints with Australia's style. The only thing of note is that the mullet wearing number 12 for Australia made quite a few hits on Banahan without even attempting to put his arms around the man, clearly a pre-thought tactic for him to target the big guy, but not carried out entirely legally.

Like I said though, I'm not mentioning this out of spite, but there are the same things time and time again, like going in at the side of the ruck and not being penalised for it. Have the rules of rugby changed? because the amount of times New Zealand went over the top off their feet and not penalised was astonishing. Plenty of forward passes, holding back men who don't have the ball. The very fact that you are allowed to try and stand and get the ball from when you tackled the player and McCaw standing on the Welsh side and picking up the ball, on the Welsh side, shows that he's gone over the top or not rolled away every single time he makes a tackle.

What is wrong with the IRB referees? why does this continually not get discussed and why don't the refs just continually ping the Kiwis for each infringement, whether it'd make for a few boring games or not is a small price to pay as they'd soon learn. At present they are openly flouting the laws of the game and making the IRB look like a bunch of idiots. Its also spoils the enjoyment of the match.

When England lost to Australia, I was annoyed... at England. Firstly, the two tries were soft tries, Danny Care should have covered the first try but instead there was a huge gap there which any number of Aussies could have gone through. Monye should have made the tackle first time for the 2nd try and even though I think he should indeed be in the team, he should be playing Wing. Monye is quite simply not an international fullback and it surprised me that Johnson made such a schoolboy error in picking him there. I think we'd have been a lot better off having Foden start at 15. Like I said though, the match finished and I was gutted we'd not won, but I could pinpoint why. We made mistakes, Australia were slightly better. Simple as that. I cannot say the same about watching New Zealand, whenever I see a Kiwi game, regardless of the result, its always the referee who I'm focussing on the most at the end of the match. How boring is that??

Anyone else feel the same about watching New Zealand and their continual cheating?

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lardinho @ Nov 9 2009, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

As someone who is half English, half Welsh, I've always enjoyed the rugby and look forward to the autumn internationals.

However, there were a few things of note that I'd like to discuss.

Firstly, Barnes is still a complete tool, and him jizzing over the new Aussie scrum half was just pathetic, he even mentioned Nick Farr-Jones at one point and what the hell is up with that? The guy needs to be playing for another 10 years before he should be mentioned in the same breath as Farr-Jones, however talented he is.

Secondly, how is it that again and again, the New Zealanders get away with murder? It really is so boring to see the same thing happen when anyone plays New Zealand. This isn't something I'm talking about because I was annoyed that Wales lost, I think the Kiwis played better and it was a fair result. Equally, I though the Aussies were better than England, not much, but again a fair result and i have not many gripes about that match and no complaints with Australia's style. The only thing of note is that the mullet wearing number 12 for Australia made quite a few hits on Banahan without even attempting to put his arms around the man, clearly a pre-thought tactic for him to target the big guy, but not carried out entirely legally.

Like I said though, I'm not mentioning this out of spite, but there are the same things time and time again, like going in at the side of the ruck and not being penalised for it. Have the rules of rugby changed? because the amount of times New Zealand went over the top off their feet and not penalised was astonishing. Plenty of forward passes, holding back men who don't have the ball. The very fact that you are allowed to try and stand and get the ball from when you tackled the player and McCaw standing on the Welsh side and picking up the ball, on the Welsh side, shows that he's gone over the top or not rolled away every single time he makes a tackle.

What is wrong with the IRB referees? why does this continually not get discussed and why don't the refs just continually ping the Kiwis for each infringement, whether it'd make for a few boring games or not is a small price to pay as they'd soon learn. At present they are openly flouting the laws of the game and making the IRB look like a bunch of idiots. Its also spoils the enjoyment of the match.

When England lost to Australia, I was annoyed... at England. Firstly, the two tries were soft tries, Danny Care should have covered the first try but instead there was a huge gap there which any number of Aussies could have gone through. Monye should have made the tackle first time for the 2nd try and even though I think he should indeed be in the team, he should be playing Wing. Monye is quite simply not an international fullback and it surprised me that Johnson made such a schoolboy error in picking him there. I think we'd have been a lot better off having Foden start at 15. Like I said though, the match finished and I was gutted we'd not won, but I could pinpoint why. We made mistakes, Australia were slightly better. Simple as that. I cannot say the same about watching New Zealand, whenever I see a Kiwi game, regardless of the result, its always the referee who I'm focussing on the most at the end of the match. How boring is that??

Anyone else feel the same about watching New Zealand and their continual cheating?[/b]

They should be banned really. As for England and Wales, I don't have a clue how they get through 80 odd minutes without committing a single infringement, but they are the 8th wonder of the world in that respect.

 

[wertas]

About New Zealand cheating in ruck, I think that only one match where it was refering properly South Africa vs New Zealand when Brussow outplayed McCaw and M.Steyn kicked all points. And the referee was N.Owens. Maybe different interpretation but I think it was fair refering and McCaw got what he deserved. I can't guarantee one hundred percent but I remember McCaw being penalised three time in a row. Dan Carter high tackle was accidental. He hit from behind and only after replay it was clear that it was high tackle. Most spectator missed it and even all referrees missed it.

 

[C A Iversen]

Rugby breakdown laws are messy and hard to get right. Here's hoping one day it'll be sorted out the way a small faction in the NH want. That being that New Zealand can do whatever they want on the rugby field as long as they don't use their hands.

 

[MunsterMan]

He came in with a swinging arm, he deserves the 1 game ban, although I'm sure everyone who isn't English would have preferred 10 minutes.

A NH Ref would have given quite a few penalties against McCaw and co. yesterday at the breakdown, but maybe it's an interpretation thing? are you allowed enter the ruck from any angle you like and play the ball off your feet in the SH?

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Nov 9 2009, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

He came in with a swinging arm, he deserves the 1 game ban, although I'm sure everyone who isn't English would have preferred 10 minutes.

A NH Ref would have given quite a few penalties against McCaw and co. yesterday at the breakdown, but maybe it's an interpretation thing? are you allowed enter the ruck from any angle you like and play the ball off your feet in the SH?[/b]

You see, here's where it gets really weird. Really, really, really, really weird. Absolutely nothing, nothing on You Tube despite the eagerness to prove McCaws a cheat. So many, so so many northern hemisphere people say he's a cheat, yet nothing. Not much of a court case without evidence is there? Should be at least 50 clips by now. Actually more like a 100!

I'm not saying he never infringes. I'm saying he doesn't infringe a lot more than most other players. PROVE. ME. WRONG.

 

[ChiefsFan]

DC would still be playing against England if it was a one game ban. It won't affect us anyway, because it'll probably be Donald and Delaney in the 22 against Italy, regardless of the herring.

And Wales weren't exactly guilty of cheating. When Leonard knocked the ball on over the try line it was because there was a Welsh player lying there.

Also the tackle looked worse because the halfback turned around, and got hit in the neck, it would've been shoulder height otherwise. Yes, it may possibly have deserved a penalty, but plenty of refs wouldn't have given one. He doesn't deserve a citing for it though.

 

[dullonien]

I didn't have any problems with 'hands on the floor' etc. from NZ and McCaw in particular yesterday. My gripe was with the other NZ players clearing out the ruck. They almost constantly fell over the ball, making it virually impossble for Wales to have a fair chance of retaining, or stealing the ball. This is something that certainly has been refereed differently in the two hemespheres in the last year and a half. In the NH, refs are very quick to penalise players going off their feet, however SH refs seem to ignore all but the most obvious of this offence.

However Wales didn't help themselves at the ruck area. Our players were constantly getting isolated, making the decision easy for the ref on many occasions. However this difference in interpretation needs to be resolved, otherwise one team is always going to have an advantage. For instance, if it was a NH ref constantly penalising NZ yesterday, in a way that would have been unfair on NZ, as it's different to how they're used to playing week in week out.

At the end of the day, we can't do anything about the ref. As a Welsh supporter, I'm simply looking inwards for the reasons we lost. In a few crucial areas yesterday, players were found wanting. Shanklin turning over ball, Hook knocking on high balls, poor support when Alun-Wyn intercepted the ball, Andy Powell!!! There's plenty of reasons Wales lost, the ref was just a very small part..

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 9 2009, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I didn't have any problems with 'hands on the floor' etc. from NZ and McCaw in particular yesterday. My gripe was with the other NZ players clearing out the ruck. They almost constantly fell over the ball, making it virually impossble for Wales to have a fair chance of retaining, or stealing the ball. This is something that certainly has been refereed differently in the two hemespheres in the last year and a half. In the NH, refs are very quick to penalise players going off their feet, however SH refs seem to ignore all but the most obvious of this offence.

However Wales didn't help themselves at the ruck area. Our players were constantly getting isolated, making the decision easy for the ref on many occasions. However this difference in interpretation needs to be resolved, otherwise one team is always going to have an advantage. For instance, if it was a NH ref constantly penalising NZ yesterday, in a way that would have been unfair on NZ, as it's different to how they're used to playing week in week out.

At the end of the day, we can't do anything about the ref. As a Welsh supporter, I'm simply looking inwards for the reasons we lost. In a few crucial areas yesterday, players were found wanting. Shanklin turning over ball, Hook knocking on high balls, poor support when Alun-Wyn intercepted the ball, Andy Powell!!! There's plenty of reasons Wales lost, the ref was just a very small part..[/b]

Your one of the more logical welsh majority I was talking about, lol. We need more refs going up there to do club games and you guys need more coming down here. Then getting feedback from other refs in each hemisphere.

 

[dullonien]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChiefsFan @ Nov 8 2009, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Also the tackle looked worse because the halfback turned around, and got hit in the neck, it would've been shoulder height otherwise. Yes, it may possibly have deserved a penalty, but plenty of refs wouldn't have given one.[/b]

Hahaha. Worst excuse ever! Martin Roberts didn't 'turn around', he didn't 'duck', he was just running forward with the ball! No, it probably didn't deserve a citing, but as I've said before, he's been cited because it wasn't picked up in game.

 

[Lardinho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wertas @ Nov 8 2009, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

About New Zealand cheating in ruck, I think that only one match where it was refering properly South Africa vs New Zealand when Brussow outplayed McCaw and M.Steyn kicked all points. And the referee was N.Owens. Maybe different interpretation but I think it was fair refering and McCaw got what he deserved. I can't guarantee one hundred percent but I remember McCaw being penalised three time in a row. Dan Carter high tackle was accidental. He hit from behind and only after replay it was clear that it was high tackle. Most spectator missed it and even all referrees missed it.[/b]

The Carter thing wasn't really an issue for me, whether he's a clean player usually or not, it was dangerous, although it happens in rugby. Definitely should have been a penalty, perhaps a yellow card but I didn't add anything about Carter in my original post as that was just a one-off from a player who I believe is genuinely not a dirty player. That being missed isn't a problem.

 

[MunsterMan]

I admire McCaw, he is a great player who plays on the edge of the law, but he seems to be allowed to do what he wants at the breakdown sometimes, but hey, like I said maybe it's just an interpretation thing. I agree wholeheartedly about SH refs reffing NH club games and vice versa.

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Nov 9 2009, 10:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I admire McCaw, he is a great player who plays on the edge of the law, but he seems to be allowed to do what he wants at the breakdown sometimes, but hey, like I said maybe it's just an interpretation thing. I agree wholeheartedly about SH refs reffing NH club games and vice versa.[/b]

Had Wayne Barnes down here for an Air New Zealand Cup game, Southland vs Wellington, and he wasn't too bad. Made a couple of mistakes, but still who doesn't? I'm sure he's the better for it interpretation-wise. Much like some of our ref's need to go up there for a few games. So, yeah it's got to be good for the global game if this happens, eventually we might all play exactly the same game.

 

[Lardinho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Nov 9 2009, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He came in with a swinging arm, he deserves the 1 game ban, although I'm sure everyone who isn't English would have preferred 10 minutes.

A NH Ref would have given quite a few penalties against McCaw and co. yesterday at the breakdown, but maybe it's an interpretation thing? are you allowed enter the ruck from any angle you like and play the ball off your feet in the SH?[/b]

You see, here's where it gets really weird. Really, really, really, really weird. Absolutely nothing, nothing on You Tube despite the eagerness to prove McCaws a cheat. So many, so so many northern hemisphere people say he's a cheat, yet nothing. Not much of a court case without evidence is there? Should be at least 50 clips by now. Actually more like a 100!

I'm not saying he never infringes. I'm saying he doesn't infringe a lot more than most other players. PROVE. ME. WRONG.
[/b][/quote]

I have eyes, I cannot make videos so I won't be posting on youtube either and seeing as you are a Kiwi and would not argue against your home country, I'm don't feel I need to *prove* you wrong. My original post was designed largely to discuss people's opinions. Ideally people who are neither Welsh or Kiwi will also post to give an outsider's perspective. I've had a few of those, which is good and I appreciate you believe that McCaw isn't a cheat and I'm not saying he is a "cheat" really, I think there's a culture of getting away with as much as you can and no other team in world rugby continually infringes as much as the Kiwis do. England had 4 yellow cards in last year's Autumn internationals and the fact that the Kiwis had none on Saturday is a pretty disgraceful set of affairs really. I think Gatland is right when he says referees don't want to be involved in upsets. These referees should be stripped if they aren't up to the standard.

The thing is, this isn't me angry at New Zealand for cheating, although its not a particularly honourable thing for Henry to encourage in his squad. It is indeed about winning, although ironically its was the Kiwis who talk of winning with honour in the 7s when they never kick penalties or never used to kick conversions, although when it suits them they are quite quick to totally disregard their previous stances. I am angry at the referees for letting the Kiwis effectively play different rules to everyone else. So please don't think I *hate* the Kiwis or anything, I'm just disappointed that they feel they aren't good enough without infringing continually and disappointed at the referees. I think even without the cheating, the Kiwis would still be an awesome side, better than the NH sides at present and have an excellent amount of talent in the team.

 

[Lardinho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChiefsFan @ Nov 8 2009, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

DC would still be playing against England if it was a one game ban. It won't affect us anyway, because it'll probably be Donald and Delaney in the 22 against Italy, regardless of the herring.

And Wales weren't exactly guilty of cheating. When Leonard knocked the ball on over the try line it was because there was a Welsh player lying there.

Also the tackle looked worse because the halfback turned around, and got hit in the neck, it would've been shoulder height otherwise. Yes, it may possibly have deserved a penalty, but plenty of refs wouldn't have given one. He doesn't deserve a citing for it though.[/b]

I agree, the Carter thing isn't something that riles me, its just one of those things and I don't include it in my assessment. Also I agree about the Welsh player using his arm there, again this was a one off thing and I wouldn't have been surprised a both a yellow card and a penalty try.

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lardinho @ Nov 9 2009, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Nov 9 2009, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He came in with a swinging arm, he deserves the 1 game ban, although I'm sure everyone who isn't English would have preferred 10 minutes.

A NH Ref would have given quite a few penalties against McCaw and co. yesterday at the breakdown, but maybe it's an interpretation thing? are you allowed enter the ruck from any angle you like and play the ball off your feet in the SH?[/b]

You see, here's where it gets really weird. Really, really, really, really weird. Absolutely nothing, nothing on You Tube despite the eagerness to prove McCaws a cheat. So many, so so many northern hemisphere people say he's a cheat, yet nothing. Not much of a court case without evidence is there? Should be at least 50 clips by now. Actually more like a 100!

I'm not saying he never infringes. I'm saying he doesn't infringe a lot more than most other players. PROVE. ME. WRONG.
[/b][/quote]

I have eyes, I cannot make videos so I won't be posting on youtube either and seeing as you are a Kiwi and would not argue against your home country, I'm don't feel I need to *prove* you wrong. My original post was designed largely to discuss people's opinions. Ideally people who are neither Welsh or Kiwi will also post to give an outsider's perspective. I've had a few of those, which is good and I appreciate you believe that McCaw isn't a cheat and I'm not saying he is a "cheat" really, I think there's a culture of getting away with as much as you can and no other team in world rugby continually infringes as much as the Kiwis do. England had 4 yellow cards in last year's Autumn internationals and the fact that the Kiwis had none on Saturday is a pretty disgraceful set of affairs really. I think Gatland is right when he says referees don't want to be involved in upsets. These referees should be stripped if they aren't up to the standard.

The thing is, this isn't me angry at New Zealand for cheating, although its not a particularly honourable thing for Henry to encourage in his squad. It is indeed about winning, although ironically its was the Kiwis who talk of winning with honour in the 7s when they never kick penalties or never used to kick conversions, although when it suits them they are quite quick to totally disregard their previous stances. I am angry at the referees for letting the Kiwis effectively play different rules to everyone else. So please don't think I *hate* the Kiwis or anything, I'm just disappointed that they feel they aren't good enough without infringing continually and disappointed at the referees. I think even without the cheating, the Kiwis would still be an awesome side, better than the NH sides at present and have an excellent amount of talent in the team.
[/b][/quote]

1. "and seeing as you are a Kiwi and would not argue against your home country, I'm don't feel I need to *prove* you wrong". I have always been able to see past my country and am not blinded by loyalty. McCaw has played against my team, Southland in our local comp. He's played against my team in the Super 14, when he plays the Highlanders. I'd have no problem labelling him a cheat if he was.

2. "Ideally people who are neither Welsh or Kiwi will also post to give an outsider's perspective". Then that cuts you out from posting also, not just me!

3. "no other team in world rugby continually infringes as much as the Kiwis do". A generalism which has no factual base is not a truth.

4. "England had 4 yellow cards in last year's Autumn internationals and the fact that the Kiwis had none on Saturday is a pretty disgraceful set of affairs really". We didn't ref the game we played in it. Were we supposed to stop and say, "Ref! Penalise me!"

5. "I am angry at the referees for letting the Kiwis effectively play different rules to everyone else". Well I'm not angry, I'm just being level-headed. This is again a generalism, you can say what you like, but the New Zealanders are not playing totally differently rules to everyone else, we play no differently to the Australians and South Africans in nearly every respect. The whole statement undermines the integrity of New Zealand Rugby in general and is an insult really.

6. "I think even without the cheating, the Kiwis would still be an awesome side, better than the NH sides at present and have an excellent amount of talent in the team". How can you really believe that when you have effectively said that we get crucial rulings our way all game? Wales only lost 19-12, so you've effectively said that Wales would've won. Just be honest about how much you think Wales were robbed and the whole game stolen from you.

7. "So please don't think I *hate* the Kiwis or anything". LOL, the best for last. No, there hasn't been any kiwi bashing going on has there?

 

[Steve-o]

Ohhh, the annual 'Richie McCaw & the All Blacks are cheats' thread. I think we should pin these ones.

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Nov 9 2009, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Ohhh, the annual 'Richie McCaw & the All Blacks are cheats' thread. I think we should pin these ones.[/b]

"But, but, but, we're really not saying New Zealand are cheats. We're just saying that they, you know, well, ahhhhhhhh, well, sort of, kinda........cheat"

 

[Nickdnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lardinho @ Nov 9 2009, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Nov 9 2009, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He came in with a swinging arm, he deserves the 1 game ban, although I'm sure everyone who isn't English would have preferred 10 minutes.

A NH Ref would have given quite a few penalties against McCaw and co. yesterday at the breakdown, but maybe it's an interpretation thing? are you allowed enter the ruck from any angle you like and play the ball off your feet in the SH?[/b]

You see, here's where it gets really weird. Really, really, really, really weird. Absolutely nothing, nothing on You Tube despite the eagerness to prove McCaws a cheat. So many, so so many northern hemisphere people say he's a cheat, yet nothing. Not much of a court case without evidence is there? Should be at least 50 clips by now. Actually more like a 100!

I'm not saying he never infringes. I'm saying he doesn't infringe a lot more than most other players. PROVE. ME. WRONG.
[/b][/quote]

I have eyes, I cannot make videos so I won't be posting on youtube either and seeing as you are a Kiwi and would not argue against your home country, I'm don't feel I need to *prove* you wrong. My original post was designed largely to discuss people's opinions. Ideally people who are neither Welsh or Kiwi will also post to give an outsider's perspective. I've had a few of those, which is good and I appreciate you believe that McCaw isn't a cheat and I'm not saying he is a "cheat" really, I think there's a culture of getting away with as much as you can and no other team in world rugby continually infringes as much as the Kiwis do. England had 4 yellow cards in last year's Autumn internationals and the fact that the Kiwis had none on Saturday is a pretty disgraceful set of affairs really. I think Gatland is right when he says referees don't want to be involved in upsets. These referees should be stripped if they aren't up to the standard.

The thing is, this isn't me angry at New Zealand for cheating, although its not a particularly honourable thing for Henry to encourage in his squad. It is indeed about winning, although ironically its was the Kiwis who talk of winning with honour in the 7s when they never kick penalties or never used to kick conversions, although when it suits them they are quite quick to totally disregard their previous stances. I am angry at the referees for letting the Kiwis effectively play different rules to everyone else. So please don't think I *hate* the Kiwis or anything, I'm just disappointed that they feel they aren't good enough without infringing continually and disappointed at the referees. I think even without the cheating, the Kiwis would still be an awesome side, better than the NH sides at present and have an excellent amount of talent in the team.
[/b][/quote]
Yes, that you for not proving him wrong, making statments without evidence makes you the baster of debate...

On the other note yes you right. New Zealand cheats. And as Gatland said referees choose to make New Zealand win so not to cause an up set. And Richie McCaw may infact be the anti christ, and the attept Carter made on the life of the welsh player was nothing short of horrific, single worst incident in rugby's history. My biggest regret is that the game was not held in a country which executions are given for heinous crimes such as this. As a New Zealander, I feel disgraced every time I watch a match against Wales that New Zealand win via cheating or conspiring with the referee to guarentee New Zealand's win. New Zealand often use excuses such as "being the better team" however that is rubbish. Wales in their infinite glory are a far better team then New Zealand, and the fact that the score board does not represent that fact is nothing short of sickening. May someone else please start up a particion in which we can sign to get New Zealand banned from international rugby, I feel this is the only way in which we can stop New Zealand constantly cheating their way to success against the superior North Hemisphare teams.

In the meantime I'll be crying a river, and I'm sure all the Welsh fans moaning will join me.

 

[ChiefsFan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxcab9m8M4A