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Why is Saint-Andre's record so poor with France ?

Rugga-lad

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I've always loved the french. Everything french really. Paris is my favourite city in the world. And thus, it's dissapointing to see France doing badly. However, i'm wondering what attributes to Saint-Andre's poor coaching record ?

Can he not cut it at international level ?
The French Rugby Union must have seen something in him to appoint him.
 
Theres more than one reason for it.

His chopping and changing of the team doesn't help.
Half the team are not even French.
Maybe the style is hit and miss. Most other teams are more conservative.


Its not all his fault though.
The French league has plenty of foreigners in it which blocks the path of native French. Clubs have less time to develop players. Its like the England soccer situation.
The fitness of the French players isn't as great as other countries. Thats down to the clubs.
The French are over confident when coming up against other nations. Not enough respect.
 
Theres more than one reason for it.

His chopping and changing of the team doesn't help.
Half the team are not even French.
Maybe the style is hit and miss. Most other teams are more conservative.


Its not all his fault though.
The French league has plenty of foreigners in it which blocks the path of native French. Clubs have less time to develop players. Its like the England soccer situation.
The fitness of the French players isn't as great as other countries. Thats down to the clubs.
The French are over confident when coming up against other nations. Not enough respect.

- Well I wouldn't say that our league has too many foreigners, that does not explain everything. We are not to a point like English football ... They have over 50% of the pleayers being foreigners, I'm not sure it is that much in top 14. And some of our young players manage to reach the top team, guys like Xavier Chiocci, being starting prop in Toulon.

- Fitness is not exactly the word. I would say tireness. Top 14 is too demanding. The French league is a bunch of old timers, only interested in eating and talking ! They do not want to consider the national team as Irish or Welsh do ! The clubs here are seen more important than the national team. It is getting a major problem considering the preparation of the 6N. Here they only have like 1 or 2 weeks to set up game plans and tactics. Too few to get ready to challenge teams like the Greens, who have a full Pro12 season to get prepared to Champs cup and 6N. Here, players struggle every week end with their clubs to get to top 6 of the league.

- Over confident is how you see French from abroad ! It is exactly how the French see the Parisians ! So over confidence is not the point ! We are not confident at all when it comes to the crunch !!! But you are almost right, France is never so dangerous but when we are seen as the little team in games. That is why we have beaten the blacks in 99 and 07 (and should have in 11 if Joubert was not the ref). But when we are said to be better than the opposition, we always loose ! That is French disease !!!

Back to PSA, from here, he looks like being lost and not understanding the modern rugby requirements ... Pretty weird as he was a great player and did good things when coaching clubs ...
 
That is why we have beaten the blacks in 99 and 07 (and should have in 11 if Joubert was not the ref).

Forgot Joubert missed all those kicks at goal for France...I guess he felt sorry for the ABs after Wayne Barnes ;).'

I think by in large you hit the nail on the head. You have can't have as many games as the French leagues do - even with such large squads - and expect great results come the internationals. I think France tends to have the least amount of preparation before tournaments and series due to the Top 14 as well. Add to that the FRF, on the rare battles they seem to win against the LNR, make terrible selection decisions in terms of management. PSA was a poor choice of national coach. He was coaching at Sale during a very great time for the club, but when he took over for Toulon they pretty consistently underperformed. His selections are pretty sporadic in that he gives some players 100 chances through bad form (like Michelak), but other players who perform consistently are dropped. He's just an average coach. Looking at Serge Blanco's new role - right after Biarritz has begun its pretty terrible demise - is a perfect example of the wrong people being given the big jobs.
 
I'm sorry but I have to laugh. The frenchies seem to easily blame Joubert for their misfortune in 2011. But they forget that they got the rub of the green in 2007 from a ref's error.

It's 1-1, how about we call it a draw, and leave it at that?
 
It all comes down to the role of FFR. They are in charge of the national team.

Les Bleus poor results are the direct consequence of decades of mismanagment of the national team by FFR and the current communication breakdown with the big clubs. The clubs have gone fully Pro since 1995. FFR has Not. After the WC in South Africa FFR had the opportunity to directly contract the internationals which is what they should have done. In the end they did nothing. The clubs didn't waste time. They structure themsleves, got money and took charge of their own affairs.

Now FFR and Saint André like to blame the clubs for decisions they should have made.

LNR as the professional arm of FFR are the same bunch of apes with a different name tag. LNR officially represent the clubs but they certainly do not speak for them. Toulouse since last season no longer seat at LNR. Our president has walked out. The system is completely dysfunctional. But that's FFR for you and they can take the blame. THEY created LNR in an attempt to reign in the big clubs. They have failed at that too.

The 3-year residency makes it now possible for foreign born players to be elligible. These ADD to the talent pool not take away. Kockott Leroux Atonio Spedding Claassen are a NET GAIN to us. The foreign internationals who are not elligible is much less than the total number of homegrown players+ elligible imports. The foreign presence is just a bad excuse FFR have been peddling around. Many of these players don't make it and go home (incl. Lions test player like Lydiate). If you look at the top fly-halves in the league Francois Trin Dhuc, Camille Lopez and Pierre Bernard have all been out of the squad during the last 3 years of Saint Andre's time. FTD has always been out of favour with Saint André. Lopez was injured most of 2013-2014 and is only getting back into the squad. Pierre Bernard who was the best scorer in the league last season has yet to be capped! But hey let's blame the foreigners on that one as well.........

This season younger French players have displaced foreign stars such as Jules Plisson over Morné Steyn (who has played one single Top 14 in which he got red carded) at Stade Français, Max Machenaud over Mike Phillips at Racing. Yet both Plisson and Machenaud have been left ouf of any of the various 30 players lists we've seen.

When he was coaching Toulon, Saint André recruited 70% of the foreigners that make up the league of nations called Toulon. He had a dream team on paper, yet never got going in the league. When he got the France job after struggling at Toulon, he started blaming the numberr of foreigners in the league. Typical FFR communication. In those same 3 years he was busy running Fra into the ground, Laporte at Toulon won 2 HCup and 1 Bouclier.
Spot the difference. But of course, the revolution Laporte brought to Toulon wouldn't have anything to do with his coaching ability...

All above players are regular team starters. There's more than enough first-starters to have a competitive squad. At the end of the day they only need a group of 30. But that takes a modicum of good communication with the clubs who provide the players, at the very least a working relationship with their head coach, a clear selectorial policy, an actual game plan, leadership, a plan to develop players, a work and team ethics that any pro players should expect etc...and oh boy this is where Philippe's problems really start. They have none of the above in stock at FFR.

Sevens rugby and Womens rugby over here are examples of FFR's work. I have spoken with people involved with both. All said they cannot get the funding they need from FFR. Of course you won't hear too much of that in the media, that would kind of rock the boat. No media would ever dare publish any interview about those problems because FFR would come down on them like a ton of brick. Why is the France Sevens rugby so pathetic? They are managed by FFR. There's plenty of young players raring to play Sevens over here. They come to the club here at Toulouse asking about playing Sevens. No shortage here.

NZ and Eng ladies have gone pro after the last WC. The French women haven't. No money. FFR think it's much better to shell out 600 M euros for a new stadium this country doesn't need. This is where their priorities are. The talk of "ah look at all the money in Top 14 blah blah" is laughable. There is no budget in Top 14 today that comes anywhere close to 600 M euros. This is more than double the entire budget of all Top 14 clubs Yet Sevens and Womens national teams cannot get a dime.

Without the support & cooperation from clubs and head coaches the national coach is effed from the beginning. Doesn't matter how many foreigners are in the league. You could fire all the foreigners in Top 14 tomorrow. None of the above issues would go away because the same dysfunctional system would still be in place. Don't count on FFR to reform itself.

Sure they could shorten the number of league games, impose foreigners quota, curfew after 10 pm blah blah. LNR have it all in their power to decide all these things tomorrow. Managing the league is what they're supposed to do. Are they doing anything to tackle these issues? Of course not. And the clubs are not at fault for LNR not doing their job.

The end result of all this is clubs and national team are moving out into separate galaxies. They don't speak the same rugby language. After the WC they will need an interpreter...

More on FFR's sterling work with the league http://www.therugbyforum.com/thread...-is-it-working?p=682586&viewfull=1#post682586
 
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I was going to comment about it but there is just so many problems LNR + FFR + MUPPETS as coaches far too long and exhaustive and i have not got the time !!!!!
 
Forgot Joubert missed all those kicks at goal for France...I guess he felt sorry for the ABs after Wayne Barnes ;).'

I think by in large you hit the nail on the head. You have can't have as many games as the French leagues do - even with such large squads - and expect great results come the internationals. I think France tends to have the least amount of preparation before tournaments and series due to the Top 14 as well. Add to that the FRF, on the rare battles they seem to win against the LNR, make terrible selection decisions in terms of management. PSA was a poor choice of national coach. He was coaching at Sale during a very great time for the club, but when he took over for Toulon they pretty consistently underperformed. His selections are pretty sporadic in that he gives some players 100 chances through bad form (like Michelak), but other players who perform consistently are dropped. He's just an average coach. Looking at Serge Blanco's new role - right after Biarritz has begun its pretty terrible demise - is a perfect example of the wrong people being given the big jobs.


Yep, you're totally right, except for the first sentence ! But on the rest of your post, that is exactly what we all complain about here ! We call the FFR, the republic of friends. If you are not part of them, then you cannot influence any of their decisions. And these guys are all old morrons, as I said, only interested in eating and earning money ! No consideration for rugby !!! So having said that, how could they nominate a competent coach ??? Laporte was the exception, maybe because they were lucky ...

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I'm sorry but I have to laugh. The frenchies seem to easily blame Joubert for their misfortune in 2011. But they forget that they got the rub of the green in 2007 from a ref's error.

It's 1-1, how about we call it a draw, and leave it at that?


Nop, sorry, we won't forget. How could we ? I cannot say Wayne Barnes did not make a mistake in 07. But that is just 1 mistake in a 1/4 final. Who could say the Blacks would have won the WC that year if they had beaten us ?

On the contrary, in 2011, we have had the entire second half cheated by Joubert. And winning that match would have made us world champion for the first time ... But it is not admitible in this sport to have a very bad playing team (like we were in 2011) to win a WC in NZ against the Blacks in final ... Poor sport ...

So it is about 10-1 for NZ
 
Sometimes i feel Saint-andre doesn't pick the right players, He had faith in Michalak for sometime and there are much better 10's than him now but yet he still picks him over the rest. Is Basteraud really they're best outside centre ? he is for Saint-andre. But to be fair the six nation squad looks better now i'm not sure if france will do any better though.
 
Sometimes i feel Saint-andre doesn't pick the right players, He had faith in Michalak for sometime and there are much better 10's than him now but yet he still picks him over the rest. Is Basteraud really they're best outside centre ? he is for Saint-andre. But to be fair the six nation squad looks better now i'm not sure if france will do any better though.

Scotty, it is not only a feeling ! He does not pick the right players !!!

On the other hand, I do not agree with your example of Bastareau. Seeing what he does with Toulon, I would pick him at n.13. He's far from being the best passer we've had, but how many Centre could knock donw an opposing 7 and 8 in the same action (Toulon/Leicester in december) ? And he's also very good in his ability to contest in rucks.
I would have choosen the example of Fofana, being one of the best n.12 in Europe, St André was picking him up originally as winger ... And he did absolutly nothing ...
 
Yep, you're totally right, except for the first sentence ! But on the rest of your post, that is exactly what we all complain about here ! We call the FFR, the republic of friends. If you are not part of them, then you cannot influence any of their decisions. And these guys are all old morrons, as I said, only interested in eating and earning money ! No consideration for rugby !!! So having said that, how could they nominate a competent coach ??? Laporte was the exception, maybe because they were lucky ...

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Nop, sorry, we won't forget. How could we ? I cannot say Wayne Barnes did not make a mistake in 07. But that is just 1 mistake in a 1/4 final. Who could say the Blacks would have won the WC that year if they had beaten us ?

On the contrary, in 2011, we have had the entire second half cheated by Joubert. And winning that match would have made us world champion for the first time ... But it is not admitible in this sport to have a very bad playing team (like we were in 2011) to win a WC in NZ against the Blacks in final ... Poor sport ...

So it is about 10-1 for NZ

Hmmm, Craig Joubert is one of the best refs in the world on a consistent basis. Sure he makes a mistake here and there, but if continuously gave penalties for France to kick at goal, and then they miss, he's still the bad guy?? What about your crappy kicker?? Was his selection maybe also not political??
 
- Well I wouldn't say that our league has too many foreigners, that does not explain everything. We are not to a point like English football ... They have over 50% of the pleayers being foreigners, I'm not sure it is that much in top 14. And some of our young players manage to reach the top team, guys like Xavier Chiocci, being starting prop in Toulon.

- Fitness is not exactly the word. I would say tireness. Top 14 is too demanding. The French league is a bunch of old timers, only interested in eating and talking ! They do not want to consider the national team as Irish or Welsh do ! The clubs here are seen more important than the national team. It is getting a major problem considering the preparation of the 6N. Here they only have like 1 or 2 weeks to set up game plans and tactics. Too few to get ready to challenge teams like the Greens, who have a full Pro12 season to get prepared to Champs cup and 6N. Here, players struggle every week end with their clubs to get to top 6 of the league.

- Over confident is how you see French from abroad ! It is exactly how the French see the Parisians ! So over confidence is not the point ! We are not confident at all when it comes to the crunch !!! But you are almost right, France is never so dangerous but when we are seen as the little team in games. That is why we have beaten the blacks in 99 and 07 (and should have in 11 if Joubert was not the ref). But when we are said to be better than the opposition, we always loose ! That is French disease !!!

Back to PSA, from here, he looks like being lost and not understanding the modern rugby requirements ... Pretty weird as he was a great player and did good things when coaching clubs ...


Oh the poor French players are flogged while the Irish are only winning because they're wrapped in cotton wool for most of the year. Thats the kind of lack of respect I was talking about. Do yourself a favour and have a look at the Irish injury list.
 
Scotty, it is not only a feeling ! He does not pick the right players !!!

On the other hand, I do not agree with your example of Bastareau. Seeing what he does with Toulon, I would pick him at n.13. He's far from being the best passer we've had, but how many Centre could knock donw an opposing 7 and 8 in the same action (Toulon/Leicester in december) ? And he's also very good in his ability to contest in rucks.
I would have choosen the example of Fofana, being one of the best n.12 in Europe, St André was picking him up originally as winger ... And he did absolutly nothing ...
Well i suppose to be fair on Bastareuad i can not actually think off a French 13 who is better than him, I did think Fritz but i dont know if he's retired or not for France
 
Hmmm, Craig Joubert is one of the best refs in the world on a consistent basis. Sure he makes a mistake here and there, but if continuously gave penalties for France to kick at goal, and then they miss, he's still the bad guy?? What about your crappy kicker?? Was his selection maybe also not political??


Constantly given penalties ??? Are you sure we're talking about the same match ? ... The only kickable penalty given in second half was 50m away ... It's Weepu who missed 3 or 4 kicks in first half. He's the one to blame if NZ was not 12 pts ahead at half time, giving us the opportunity to come back in second half. But the ref did decide it would not happen. Did you notice he was angry when Dusautoir scored, because there was absolutly no reason why he could invalidate the try ?

Now please have a look at this video, you couldn't say it is french ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7C6bTHyC0U

And, as they say at the end, NZ did deserve winning the tournament, but they did not deserve winning the final ! It is the exact contrary for France ! We did a crap WC, but we should have won the final.

So I can understand you want to protect your Saffie ref, but please don't be dishonnest.

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Oh the poor French players are flogged while the Irish are only winning because they're wrapped in cotton wool for most of the year. Thats the kind of lack of respect I was talking about. Do yourself a favour and have a look at the Irish injury list.

So how can you explain your beloved fly half Sexton came back home saying he could not play for both Racing and Ireland because of the top 14 being to tiering ?

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Well i suppose to be fair on Bastareuad i can not actually think off a French 13 who is better than him, I did think Fritz but i dont know if he's retired or not for France

Well Fritz in national team is a long story ... But I've never seen him being the one we need at 13, even if some ST fans would boo me for saying that !!! Rougerie is also excellent at 13 but he's now retired ... Maybe Fickou can do it in a few years if the next France head coach is not too stupid ... But he's more a 12 than a 13 ...
 
I think that the problem could be the style of the French teams. They all like to base their game around a big forward pack and being able to out muscle every other team, but they aren't able to replicate this on the intl' level. Also I think that players like Basta are just bigged up to someone they aren't. Then you have a guy who can't select the players he wants.
 
I think that the problem could be the style of the French teams. They all like to base their game around a big forward pack and being able to out muscle every other team, but they aren't able to replicate this on the intl' level. Also I think that players like Basta are just bigged up to someone they aren't. Then you have a guy who can't select the players he wants.


I don't think so. We simply have an uncompetent coach !!! When Laporte was coach (99-07), he didn't have better players than we have now ... And we won more 6N tournaments and Grand slam than any other nation (talking about 6N, not consideing 5N) ...
 
But you've moved away from brilliant back play to a strong forwards power game. Obviously just my opinion and PSA is useless at his job, I wont defend him for anything.
 
I like Dumoulin from what little I've seen of him, although I can't help feeling he seems more like a natural fit for 12 (big, good distribution) and Fofana seems more like a 13 (quick, good lines, nose for the line). Have either ever played the other centre position?
 
But you've moved away from brilliant back play to a strong forwards power game. Obviously just my opinion and PSA is useless at his job, I wont defend him for anything.

I wouldn't like to be offensiv (even if I sometimes like teasing my best ennemies) but I would say it is your fault ! We have had to adapt to your devastating scrumm ! No scrumm no win you say !

And I totally agree with you, PSA is useless and undefendable !

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I like Dumoulin from what little I've seen of him, although I can't help feeling he seems more like a natural fit for 12 (big, good distribution) and Fofana seems more like a 13 (quick, good lines, nose for the line). Have either ever played the other centre position?


Well, I always wondered why Fofana was playing at 12 and not 13 ... But seeing how devastating he is in the centre, 12 or 13 is the same to him. The thing is that Rougerie (originally winger) is playing 13 at Clermont, so that is maybe the explanation ...
 
Yep, you're totally right, except for the first sentence ! But on the rest of your post, that is exactly what we all complain about here ! We call the FFR, the republic of friends. If you are not part of them, then you cannot influence any of their decisions. And these guys are all old morrons, as I said, only interested in eating and earning money ! No consideration for rugby !!! So having said that, how could they nominate a competent coach ??? Laporte was the exception, maybe because they were lucky

Nop, sorry, we won't forget. How could we ? I cannot say Wayne Barnes did not make a mistake in 07. But that is just 1 mistake in a 1/4 final. Who could say the Blacks would have won the WC that year if they had beaten us ?

On the contrary, in 2011, we have had the entire second half cheated by Joubert. And winning that match would have made us world champion for the first time ... But it is not admitible in this sport to have a very bad playing team (like we were in 2011) to win a WC in NZ against the Blacks in final ... Poor sport ...

So it is about 10-1 for NZ

Ughh.

In 2007 Waynes Barned didn't award a single penalty to the All Blacks in the entire second half! Wayne Barnes simply completely choked. The winning try was off a forward pass.

Compare this to New Zealand vs France, in which Joubert missed Rougerie's eye gouge on Richie McCaw, awarded a penalty count of 7/10 penalties in favor of the All Blacks (hardly biased), and France would have won had their kicking for goal not been at only 25% for the match. Very selective and bias memory there ;). But anyway...back on topic.

I wonder who France will look at as coach of the national team after the RWC. Surely they won't keep him.

Not sure who they would get to replace him. Fabien Galthié? Wouldn't even mind seeing Noves get the job, despite Toulouse's horrific form.
 

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