Will Dylan Hartley ever learn?

Discussion in 'Aviva Premiership / LV Cup' started by smartcooky, Dec 10, 2016.

  1. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    Yet another spiteful and filthy piece of nastiness from Hartley.

    https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/dylan-hartley-sean-obrien/105718

    Hartley is a walking sanction., an unremitting thug with a disgraceful rap sheet...

    APR 2007: 26 weeks - Eye gouging
    MAR 2012: 8 weeks - Biting
    DEC 2012: 2 weeks - Punching
    MAY 2013: 11 weeks - Swearing at the referee and accusing him of cheating
    DEC 2014: 3 weeks - Striking with the elbow
    MAY 2015: 4 weeks - Head Butting

    Total, 54 weeks in suspensions...that is almost two full seasons

    He's been given chance after chance. There are plenty of England hookers who bring as much to the table as he does but are not such a liability. It time the judiciary stopped just sending messages and threw the bloody book at this asshat.

    [TEXTAREA]10.4(a) Striking another Player with a hand, arm or fist
    LE – 2 weeks
    MR – 5 weeks
    TE – 8+ weeks
    52 weeks[/TEXTAREA]

    GIve him the full whack IMO!
     
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  3. The_Blindside

    The_Blindside Senior Member

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    Is he seeing a sports pyschologist? If not, he should do.
     
  4. Gavin

    Gavin Senior Member

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    He's a Kiwi, ain't he, by birth?

    He is an absolute idiot and a thug.
     
  5. j'nuh

    j'nuh Senior Member

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    Yeah. I think he came over before he got the lesson on how to get away with it. :p
     
  6. TRF_SelimNiai

    TRF_SelimNiai 'Ark at ee mun!

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    A topic brought up my pundits today, as one I partially echoed myself, is that since he's been given the England captaincy he's been far more disciplined and controlled while playing for England yet reverts to type for Northampton and loses all discipline.
     
  7. The Jones Boy

    The Jones Boy Senior Member

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    Call him what you want, he's a winner and he follows in a long tradition of hard nosed successful players who perform lamentable actions from time to time.
    With him, England are indomitable and second in the world, possibly even first at Twickenham...
    Without him they can't even get out of their own pool at their own Rugby World Cup.

    How small is the mnemonic capacity of some of you on here.
    Arguably the biggest thug to grace a rugby park was Martin Johnson
    What an immense player and a great leader of men.
    Woodward knew Johnson was a thug but he picked him everytime and he picked him first.
    Without a mad dog in your pack the enemy has nothing to fear.
    Without a mad dog in your pack to lead by example your own players have no leading light of fury and passion to follow.
    Without Dylan Hartley the English pack lacks fear and intimidation.
    If you don't believe me look at what happened to England when Lancaster and that other numpty Farrell senior saw fit to leave him out of the RWC because he couldn't make the first game.
    That was the one key omission to the England team.
    They took away the mad dog and a powerful uncompromising leader of men.
    Who did Eddie Jones make his captain when he came to coach England.
    None of those already incumbent forwards.
    No.
    It was the mad dog and it was the only the choice for an astute coach or an astute follower of rugby.
    You need a hard uncompromising leader.
    England had a pack of quality players for the RWC, but there wasn't a leader among them.
    Robshaw, an excellent International quality player, sitting on his haunches, slack jawed, nodding like a circus sideshow revolving head at a kid like George Ford who was exhorting him to kick for touch...
    Hartley would have looked at the scoreboard, and the clock, turned to Ford and said," F**K off back where you belong glory boy, we'll go for the points please ref."
    Up steps the superb kicker Farrell junior and Wales are out of the 2015 RWC at the pool stage and England are in the quarter final.
    NO.
    I do not condone foul play.
    However, it worked for Johnno and the same template is the one Hartley is cut from.
    I've never seen a better hooker for England.
    I've only seen one better leader of England and if Eddie Jones had England last September maybe Hartley would have eclipsed even him.
    Hard men are essential in a rugby pack.
    Bakkies Botha, Peter Winterbottom, Brad Thorne etc

    It's not often that you get it wrong Cooky but on this occasion you are more wrong than you have ever been and I think you have an ulterior motive.
    Hartley is the only player I 'fear' seeing their name on the English team sheet.
    He is the only one who brings the mad dog, and inspires his team mates to bring it to.
    He is more than a hooker, he is a leader and he is a talisman for England.

    Eddie Jones knows it and I put more stock in his returning of England to a rugby powerhouse in just 12 months since their worst ever debacle, than your opinion.
    Stick to the reffing laws and the rules nitpicking and the other really boring kack you love to argue about ad infinitum, thats your specialty and I bow to your greater knowledge in those aspects but the playing of the game and the understanding of the key traits you need in the heat of the pack, is not.

    If Hartley is not on that team sheet I give the other top sides in International rugby a real chance against England.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  8. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    No surprise that the biggest thug in the prem is a Kiwi

    :p
     
  9. The Jones Boy

    The Jones Boy Senior Member

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    No surprise that the biggest thug of all time is English ;-)

    - - - Updated - - -

    And the England captain, hahahahahahahah
     
  10. ncurd

    ncurd Senior Member

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    I don't remember Martin Johnsons disciplinary record being even close to Hartley's.....saying Johnson was a thud is almost the same as saying McCaw was one.

    And Hartley isn't even that close to talismanic for England. I'd argue Robshaw was a better captain and leader (except you know knowing when to kick into touch or kick at goal).

    Out of the current crop if this does cost Hatley the captaincy I hate to say it but I think Jones will go with the Hask.
     
  11. Old Hooker

    Old Hooker Senior Member

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    Not sure about that. If Hartley is to be replaced I think it needs to be someone who'll take us through to the next RWC. Jones may also want someone to continue setting a spiky aggressive tone who is also experienced and sure of his shirt. Only Farrell fits the bill. He has the added pressure of being goal kicker and (at the moment) playing out of position, but I reckon he's tough and respected enough for the job.
     
  12. psychic duck

    psychic duck Senior Member

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    Johnson got involved in way more fisticuffs on the pitch than Hartley. Difference was disciplinary was much softer back then towards brawls and scuffles so his punches didn't always get bans and when they did they were much more lenient (especially as he was England captain).
     
  13. Tallshort

    Tallshort Senior Member

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    Yeah Johnson just got away with it because there wasn't always cameras back then. His captaincy of both the Lions tours he did lead was quite strongly lambasted at the time due to his perceived indiscipline. 2001 was the worst with many "fans" mainly from Ireland saying it should have been Keith Wood because he was a jolly nice chap and not a nasty English Thug like Johnson.
     
  14. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    Johnson was of the time TBH, (also Botha was the biggest thug ever) Hartley should know better by now what the rules are and how they are enforced.
     
  15. ragerancher

    ragerancher Senior Member

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    Anyone would think Hartley didn't want to go on a Lions tour...
     
  16. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    Jones Boy, you've been drinking too much of the England Kool-Aid

    Martin Johnson might have been a thug, but he was in no way as vicious or nasty as Hartley. Johnston might well have been too ready to get himself involved in fisticuffs, but I don't recall ever seeing him plumbing the depths of the kind of viciousness that Hartley has.

    Hartley is also not an "enforcer". A real "enforcer" is tough, uncompromising, and does his work on the edge of the Laws without going a long way beyond them. Jerome Kaino is an enforcer as is Paul O'Connell. When did you ever see either of them bite or eye-gouge opponents.

    Far from being fearful as an opponent I see him as a liability. I would have our enforcers needle and antagonize him knowing that sooner or later he will retaliate and get himself sidelined for ten minutes or even for the rest of match.

    Sorry mate, but you are wrong. Hartley is not deserving of the "talisman" tag you give him. McCaw was a true talisman, as was Martin Johnson, John Eales & Brian O'Driscoll. Hartley is just a mindless serial thug who is too stupid to learn from his mistakes. By the time he gets banned for this nasty bit of work (IMO, he will get around 10 weeks) he will have spent more than two entire seasons (20%) of an eleven year career professional career suspended.
     
  17. Orange

    Orange Senior Member

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    Don't remember England doing especially well in 2011 with "Mad Dog" Moody as captain.

    But then he was called mad dog because he liked being kicked in the head, rather than being nasty. He was far more confrontational than Robshaw though and comparably more than Hartley's England persona.

    Also, hearty agreement with the need for a Kaino or Lawes, rather than a Hartley or a Grewcock that does nothing but get sent off one game in ten.

    Hartley is given far too much credit for England's resurgence. Imo Jones looked around and picked someone he knew could do a job that wasn't Robshaw- visible change was needed. Wouldn't surprise me if he picked Hartley for media ****s and giggles as much as anything else.
     
  18. Groundhog

    Groundhog Senior Member

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    Goodness me what are you smoking? Going out of your way to defend the actions of a biting gouging piece of **** like Hartley is almost impressive given it's such an unbelievably stupid and indefensible view. An enforcer? Hartley is a laughing stock and his aggression is totally counter productive and not focused for the better of a team. Yeah takes a really big man to sucker punch someone because you're an infant. If you look at real enforcers like Brad Thorn, Paul O'Connell, Chabal etc you'll see physically and mentally tough men who take absolutely no **** and will lift their team by actions words and persona. They play hard, but they play the game as it should be. In Hartley you have a thug who must frustrate his teamates, country and coaches with his uncontrollable idiocy.
     
  19. The Jones Boy

    The Jones Boy Senior Member

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    One of the elements that makes Hartley a step up is that being the captain of England doesn't knock him off his game.
    His line out throwing has been sharp as a tack. Possession retained, field position gained and capitalised on. He's a ball carrier and an uncompromising tackler.
    That kind of ability is what allows him to be a talisman for his team mates.
    Yeah sure he's a hot head but that hasn't been the case in the International year of the comeback for England. Hartley hasn't put a foot wrong.
    Better than the idiot water you've been mainlining sine your mental rant. You do know about reffing but you haven't got a clue about how important Hartley has been for England this year under Eddie Jones. When it comes to knowing about the importance of certain players as Talisman, leaders and hard men you are the Dumb-biscuit.

    Under Lancaster England were all at sea without him but as soon as Eddie Jones came in Bam! Hartley is captain and it was the perfect choice.

    Eddie Jones has proven that Hartley was the right choice for the right reasons and his opinion backed up by his results for England show you are totally wrong and miles out of your depth. Like I said, Dumb-biscuit. You strike me as the kind of bloke who always wanted to be a ref, and made a show of playing the game by sitting on the bench as a wing replacement for a weight restricted third grade team.
    All enforcers break the laws from time to time. It's part of the deal.
    Kaino is not an enforcer. He is a mighty tackler like you would expect from any International no.6 but he doesn't scare the opposition the way Brad Thorne did, or Colin Meads, or Johnno, or Bakkies or Richard Loe or Frank Oliver or Willie John McBride...
    A genuine enforcer is a little bit scary and not afraid of crossing the line to impose himself on a game. Kaino's a nice church boy. Much like Michael Jones. Hard and he leads by example but not a genuine enforcer.
    Hartleys aggression and tenacity for England has charged his teammates (in the pack at least) and motivated them to another level. This year he has been a talisman for England.
    First on the team sheet every week for Mojo Jojo.

    Johnno did what needed to be done vicious or otherwise, and your lack of knowledge about how far he was prepared to go is another clear indicator you don't know what you're talking about.
    Listen to the the comments from his time at the King Country alone for the local knowledge about him. Do your homework and read the history instead of the rules Dumb Biscuit.
    Let me quote...
    "The first charge, an alleged punch on the Saracens prop Julian White, was proved.

    "On the second and third charges Martin Johnson was found guilty by the panel of kneeing and stamping the Saracens fly-half Duncan McRae.

    Your concept of vicious has been twisted around to try to win an argument you have no idea about boy. Punching kneeing and stamping in the same game. What else do you want dumb biscuit.?
    Now I'm not rubbishing Johnno as a player, I still respect him for his gifts as an enforcer and a talisman for his team mates. He was a champion for his team and Hartley has been a champion and a talisman for England since being given the captaincy.
    Lets go back a year and see what folk were saying...
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...land-and-it-should-not-bar-Dylan-Hartley.html

    Not this year. He has led from the front with élan and shown you to be totally wrong, again, you're just not getting it are you soggy biscuit. England have gone from zero to heroes in 12 months with Hartley firmly at the helm. His aggression, his leadership, his mad dog never say die attitude, Eddie loves it and it's working for England.

    The All Blacks don't have a single enforcer in the team anymore. Have you been playing with your transformers before xmas?
    They have a selection of leaders in different parts of the field but no one like Brad Thorne. No one.
    Wake up, you're dreaming.

    Secondly when the Aussie media, and the Aussie coaching staff and the Wallaby players tried the needle on the English captain ... How did that work for Aussie in Australia???
    Short memory Cookie-boy...
    Hartley's England broke the record and recorded a 3 nil whitewash with Hartley as their captain.
    He's done everything asked of him and more as England Captain.
    Talisman, leader, mad dog and cool head when decisions need to be made. Sure he can be a thug but it's not fiddly winks cookie boy.
    Eddie Jones is pi$$ing himself laughing at you right now biscuit.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  20. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Enforcers are intimidating, Hartley isn't.
    No one is scared of playing against Hartley, legally/man vs man. He's not going to smash you when he carries into/tackles you, he's not going to dominate the ruck, hell he's not even going to start throwing haymakers if it all kicks off.
    All of his offences are cheap shots and cowardly actions.

    A guy not wanting to play against someone like Jerome Kaino and not wanting to play against Hartley is two different things. One is worried about a bruised and battered body, the other is worried about getting his eye scooped out of his head.
     
  21. RedruthRFC

    RedruthRFC Senior Member

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    Have you forgotten where he learned his trade?

    Aside from the Robbie Russell incident (which was unlucky - had the punch not drawn blood and the media not goaded Russell into stirring the pot) I don't recall any other controversial incidents of thuggery from Johnson. On the other hand I recall Jamie Joseph being responsible for two assaults that would have lead to a lengthy ban these days in one tour (1993). Then there's Richard Lowe, who racked up an impressive number of bans in an era in which they were almost unheard of.
     
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