Will Dylan Hartley ever learn?

[RedruthRFC]

One of the elements that makes Hartley a step up is that being the captain of England doesn't knock him off his game.
His line out throwing has been sharp as a tack. Possession retained, field position gained and capitalised on. He's a ball carrier and an uncompromising tackler.
That kind of ability is what allows him to be a talisman for his team mates.
Yeah sure he's a hot head but that hasn't been the case in the International year of the comeback for England. Hartley hasn't put a foot wrong.

Really? 9 carries for 12 metres in the Autumn internationals. Rory Best managed 16 carries and 23 metres in one less test against arguably tougher competition!

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Really? 9 carries for 12 metres in the Autumn internationals. Rory Best managed 16 carries and 23 metres in one less test against arguably tougher competition!

He's also a dreadful tackler of late, never makes dominant hits and his percentage completed is roughly 50 iirc, although that's not a brilliant statistic as it's rare he'll try to make more than 7.

George had about two times the metres run, tackles made, carries, defenders beaten, etc, for this autumn- and he's normally subbed on at 60 minutes- while maintaining the 100% line out.

 

[Peat]

As noted above, the major problem with Hartley in an England shirt has never been his discipline, it has been his mediocre play outside of the set-piece.

 

[McTallshort]

Goodness me what are you smoking? Going out of your way to defend the actions of a biting gouging piece of **** like Hartley is almost impressive given it's such an unbelievably stupid and indefensible view. An enforcer? Hartley is a laughing stock and his aggression is totally counter productive and not focused for the better of a team. Yeah takes a really big man to sucker punch someone because you're an infant. If you look at real enforcers like Brad Thorn, Paul O'Connell, Chabal etc you'll see physically and mentally tough men who take absolutely no **** and will lift their team by actions words and persona. They play hard, but they play the game as it should be. In Hartley you have a thug who must frustrate his teamates, country and coaches with his uncontrollable idiocy.

Yes yes he's the devil incarnate. Horrible thug monster etc.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Have you forgotten where he learned his trade?

Aside from the Robbie Russell incident (which was unlucky - had the punch not drawn blood and the media not goaded Russell into stirring the pot) I don't recall any other controversial incidents of thuggery from Johnson. On the other hand I recall Jamie Joseph being responsible for two assaults that would have lead to a lengthy ban these days in one tour (1993). Then there's Richard Lowe, who racked up an impressive number of bans in an era in which they were almost unheard of.

What planet are you on?
One where they only look out of one rose tinted lens...

No other controversial incidents against Johnson??????
Muppet.

"The first charge, an alleged punch on the Saracens prop Julian White, was proved.

"On the second and third charges Martin Johnson was found guilty by the panel of kneeing and stamping the Saracens fly-half Duncan McRae."

Same game.
Johnno was putting the hurt on and it was a regular occurrence, not an occasional faux pas.
He was rightly feared as a very uncompromising opponent for a reason.

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Really? 9 carries for 12 metres in the Autumn internationals. Rory Best managed 16 carries and 23 metres in one less test against arguably tougher competition!

What silverware did Rory Best bring home for his team this year?
Did he drag a bunch of nervous wrecks from the languishing waters of despair and raise them up like a red rose wearing phoenix from the ashes of 2015?
I think not.

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Yes yes he's the devil incarnate. Horrible thug monster etc.

Lol

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I don't remember Martin Johnsons disciplinary record being even close to Hartley's.....saying Johnson was a thud is almost the same as saying McCaw was one.

And Hartley isn't even that close to talismanic for England. I'd argue Robshaw was a better captain and leader (except you know knowing when to kick into touch or kick at goal).

Out of the current crop if this does cost Hatley the captaincy I hate to say it but I think Jones will go with the Hask.

The more I read your posts the more i wonder how you could be so disconnected with reality.
Learn to read, not just write.

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Enforcers are intimidating, Hartley isn't..

Yeah fair play, he's not an enforcer in the traditional notion and he's not a monster but players do fear him, he has a reputation for being a dangerous mad dog and thats why he gets the ****le all the time in the Premiership. Johno popped his cork from time to time, all the mad dogs do, it's part of the deal.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads there's no point bringing Johnson in to this. He was a filthy cheating player who bent every rule but knew the game and knew when the limit was there. In my opinion it was part of what made him a great player and in my eyes one of the greatest captains of the game.
Every team needs a guy like him, Quinlan, Nathan Hynes, Chouly can do it for France Pelous did it. They will get caught but for every time their caught they get away with a lot more.

Difference is Hartley will have served over a year in bans and for every one of them it was an act of stupidity. And dare I say he has undone all his good work of the last 12 months in English colours.

And @Jones Boy I'm with Olyy nobody fears Hartley. From Irish eyes it's Itoje Binny and Lawes that fear us most in pack I'd say. In Irish eyes some rate Youngs as the better 2 except for lineout and George higher

 

[Peat]

Jones Boy - Shifting the goal posts isn't cool man. You said Hartley is a ball carrier. Best was used as an example of a hooker who was greatly more successful as a ball carrier this autumn to point out that Hartley's not a great ball carrier.

What their teams won this year has nothing to do with the statement you made and the counter-argument offered.

Best isn't even that great a ball carrier either. We can drag up lots and lots of examples of comparable players carrying better than Hartley. For example, all three of the other hookers in the EPS have better ball carrying stats than him in the Premiership this year. He's got the third worse carrying stats in the Premiership this year out of all the starting England pack members. And on and on. He's not a ball carrier.

You're welcome to believe he's a great leader - I completely disagree, but there we are - but whether he's one or not is irrelevant to his ball carrying. Which is objectively poor.

 

[The Jones Boy]

In Irish eyes some rate Youngs as the better 2 except for lineout and George higher

Moot speculation but 12 months ago England were lower than they have ever been before and it was Hartley who was chosen to lead England out of purgatory and onto the road to victory.
Nobody else.
Eddie Jones was right and everyone else arguing against Hartley is wrong.

Sean O'Brien is about as tough as they come, laying him out with a baseball bat would be no easy feat let alone a swinging arm.
Hartley is an enforcer just not in the mode of Johnson.

You're welcome to believe he's a great leader - I completely disagree, but there we are -

Take it up with Eddie Jones, he's proven you completely wrong.

 

[Sker]

No way was Bakkies Botha the dirtiest player ever? Surely there's been dodgier characters than him.

He was a bit of a rough douche most of the times but I only remember the stupid headbutt on Cowan and dangerous shoulder on Aplon.

Pardon my ignorance if there were more incidents, but I've always thought people were a bit tough on him when it comes to 'dirty' and really subjective because one of their precious props got hurt in a perfectly legal clean out (he even said so himself) during 09 Lions.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Can't believe how this thread has gone, just crazy.

We all know Hartley isn't the best hooker in the world.

We also know he's been an amazing leader for England.

He will eventually be phased out for George but I was expecting that this 6 nations before any ban anyhow, we all must of.

But that swinging arm happens all the time in a game, that's how people go into mauls/ rucks and tackles these days. If he didn't hit the head then his arm wraps round and it's legal. It's more foolish that anything else. I think someone on the thread mentioned it earlier but his tackling in general has been getting worse and worse.

 

[Peat]

If Hartley's such an inspirational leader, where's Northampton's giant list of recent silverware?

And good to know you won't be contesting the fact he's a poor ball carrier.

 

[BPM]

Jones Boy - Shifting the goal posts isn't cool man. You said Hartley is a ball carrier. Best was used as an example of a hooker who was greatly more successful as a ball carrier this autumn to point out that Hartley's not a great ball carrier.

What their teams won this year has nothing to do with the statement you made and the counter-argument offered.

Best isn't even that great a ball carrier either. We can drag up lots and lots of examples of comparable players carrying better than Hartley. For example, all three of the other hookers in the EPS have better ball carrying stats than him in the Premiership this year. He's got the third worse carrying stats in the Premiership this year out of all the starting England pack members. And on and on. He's not a ball carrier.

You're welcome to believe he's a great leader - I completely disagree, but there we are - but whether he's one or not is irrelevant to his ball carrying. Which is objectively poor.

Hartley has his qualities, but ball carrying isn't one of them ...

I do think he has leadership skills though.

 

[munstermuffin]

Moot speculation but 12 months ago England were lower than they have ever been before and it was Hartley who was chosen to lead England out of purgatory and onto the road to victory.
Nobody else.
Eddie Jones was right and everyone else arguing against Hartley is wrong.

Sean O'Brien is about as tough as they come, laying him out with a baseball bat would be no easy feat let alone a swinging arm.
Hartley is an enforcer just not in the mode of Johnson.



Take it up with Eddie Jones, he's proven you completely wrong.

But isn't doing it illegally a bit of thuggery. And stupidity as he's ruined his own reputation again and totally let his team and club down. Which is selfish. Equally I'd say it was more than just Hartley who helped England. I've great respect for Robshaw and think it's easier captain when things are going well. Hartleys true test as captain will be when the pressure is on and last time it happened with Saints he copped a ban.

 

[munstermuffin]

No way was Bakkies Botha the dirtiest player ever? Surely there's been dodgier characters than him.

He was a bit of a rough douche most of the times but I only remember the stupid headbutt on Cowan and dangerous shoulder on Aplon.

Pardon my ignorance if there were more incidents, but I've always thought people were a bit tough on him when it comes to 'dirty' and really subjective because one of their precious props got hurt in a perfectly legal clean out (he even said so himself) during 09 Lions.

Again another of that breed I was on about. He was brilliant and bent every rule but rarely got caught. McCaw was arguably the master.

 

[Peat]

Hartley has his qualities, but ball carrying isn't one of them ...

I do think he has leadership skills though.

He's clearly a good leader but to talk about him as a great, as the man whose leadership turned things around, that's taking things a bit far imo.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Jones Boy - Shifting the goal posts isn't cool man. You said Hartley is a ball carrier. Best was used as an example of a hooker who was greatly more successful as a ball carrier this autumn to point out that Hartley's not a great ball carrier.

Lol, it's about the standard of his rhetoric - either wilfully or though inability miscomprehend posts so that he "wins the point". If that doesn't work, ignore them and resort to playground style insults.

I won't be worrying too much about the opinion of someone who thinks that Dylan Hartley is a good ball carrier and behaves like a spoiled 12 year old when somebody has the audacity to disagree with him.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

guilty by the panel of kneeing and stamping the Saracens fly-half Duncan McRae."

The poor, innocent darling.

 

[Sker]

Again another of that breed I was on about. He was brilliant and bent every rule but rarely got caught. McCaw was arguably the master.

Definitely, and he was always first in a fight. I disliked him myself, he was a bit of dick but a good player (except the last few years, ### I was furious after that headbutt). I guess it depends on what one see's as a 'dirty' player. Which is interesting, I think universally everyone can agree that eye-gouging and hitting someone is dirty. But then I see people on here calling Etzebeth a dirty player because he seems to be involved in every fight ever.

I would call him a hotheaded dumbass for that, but does it make him a dirty player?

 

[Which Tyler]

The poor, innocent darling.

Yeah, I'm yet to feel sorry for a player who should be serving a life ban

 

[ncurd]

The more I read your posts the more i wonder how you could be so disconnected with reality.
Learn to read, not just write.

:lol: I see so many people defending your view....