England 2023/24

[TRF_Olyy]

I think loosehead is fine (I reckon Marler knocks international rugby on the head this season or next so we'll have two years of getting solid game time into whoever is next), but tighthead is a real concern - you could genuinely argue a 19yr old is our next best option behind the incumbent two
Painter started the season well but if we're being realistic he's too fat for international rugby, while I value scrummaging over everything else there is a limit when it comes to how many minutes they can play before needing an oxygen tank

The longer Harper stays fit the better he's looking, maybe he'll be in a position to challenge for international honours next season

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Tight head - Davidson. Good scrummager, offers some good hands and loose play. What's not to like.

The only problem is that I don't want too many saints playing for England as it ruins your club.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tight head - Davidson. Good scrummager, offers some good hands and loose play. What's not to like.

The only problem is that I don't want too many saints playing for England as it ruins your club

Was trying to remember who was saints tighthead
Hopefully he, or someone else, gets some time over the summer
Stuart's had more than enough chances to show what he can do for England

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Tight head - Davidson. Good scrummager, offers some good hands and loose play. What's not to like.

The only problem is that I don't want too many saints playing for England as it ruins your club.

He's 31, so not much point imo

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

First test in NZ is 6th July so might be just about enough recovery time if it's not too serious.

If not, it's good news that Obano, Baxter and Rodd are in good form.

First RWC warm up, after weeks in camp, was 5th August. Players must be knackered and sick of the sight of a rugby ball. Welfare only really seems to extend to head knocks.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He's 31, so not much point imo

34 at the world cup isn't terrible for a tighthead tbf

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Off topic a bit anyone else a bit disappointed in Arundell not getting some game time at 13.


Also sounds like he's been pretty alright for racing this who are struggling to stay in the top 14 play offs spot

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Has he ever played 13? I thought he was a straight up back 3 player

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Has he ever played 13? I thought he was a straight up back 3 player

Nah but Lancaster talked about it before the season

 

[BPM]

34 at the world cup isn't terrible for a tighthead tbf

I'd be interested to know what the average of the first choice props was in the World Cup. A lot would have been in their 30s.

Age isn't necessarily a barrier for Davidson IMO. As a relatively late bloomer his body hasn't taken the same level of battering some of his peers have had playing at the top level since their early 20s.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

34 at the world cup isn't terrible for a tighthead tbf

If he's only 3 years into his intl career, it isn't the same as a veteran intl prop imo, very different.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Davidson could offer us a solid option for two more years though while we bring through one of the younger options. He might turn out to be another Stuart at international level but until someone like Baxter is ready, we need to look at some older players.

 

[BPM]

Different sides of the scrum. Baxter's a loosehead.

Tighthead, we're really looking at someone to step-up. I haven't written off Stuart. He hasn't convinced so far, but he's nowhere near as bad as he's been made out to be. We need Heyes, Street or Harper to be in the kind of form that warrants them being involved to buy time for the likes of AOF and Fasogbon to develop.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Dan Cole will only be 41 next RWC

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Different sides of the scrum. Baxter's a loosehead.

Tighthead, we're really looking at someone to step-up. I haven't written off Stuart. He hasn't convinced so far, but he's nowhere near as bad as he's been made out to be. We need Heyes, Street or Harper to be in the kind of form that warrants them being involved to buy time for the likes of AOF and Fasogbon to develop.

Sorry forgot about him being a LH. No wonder I couldn't really think of any young THs as they arnt loads around.

What happened to all the under 20s tight heads from the last 6 years or so? I'm assuming squad players? I'm going to have to do some googling.

I'll post back later with a breakdown as I've got a boring meeting at work to do it in.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

So, young English Tight heads from the Under 20s, who should really be getting to their peak now but where are they now:

2017
Loose Head
Jake Pope - Sale FC
Alex Seville - Gloucester 3rd/2nd choice
Ollie Dawe - Rosslyn Park (last i could find of him)

Tight Head
Ciaran Knight - Gloucester 2nd choice
Joseph Morris - No club i found

2018
Loose Head
Toby Trinder - Coventry
Alex Seville - Gloucester 3rd/2nd choice

Tight Head
Ehren Painter - Exeter 1st/ 2nd choice
Joe Heyes - Tigers 2nd choice
Ciaran Knight - Gloucester 2nd choice

2019
Loose Head
Olly Adkins - was at Gloucester but on loan to Cornish P - maybe in Australia non pro now
James Kenny - Exeter on loan to Ospreys last season
Kai Owen - Doncaster

Tight Head
Joe Heyes - Tigers 2nd choice
Alfie Petch - Biarritz as a medical joker -not sure for next season
Marcus Street - Exeter 2nd/ 3rd choice

2020
Loose Head
Sam Crean - Sarries (but not on their web site) - was on loan at Ampthill
James Whitcombe - Tigers 3rd/4th choice

Tight Head
Harvey Beaton - Sarries/ on loan Cornish Pirates
Luke Green - San Diego



So out of the crop that should now really be establishing themselves, non of the loose heads nor tight heads are even 1st choice starters at their clubs. A lot of players have also dropped off a cliff which is shocking compared to the other names littering those under 20 squads.


At Loose head no one of note sticks out. At tight head you have Heyes (who propably should have moved club) and Knight but neither are first choice nor tearing up trees. Then there is Painter but he's too unfit for international rugby (i'm thinking).

Not great reading.

 

[Which Tyler]

Presumably hence the scrummaging boot camps we were talking about in January

Nathan Catt: Success is can we get world-class front row players, world-class scrummagers through the system?

Exclusive: The former Bath prop - who also won a U20 Six Nations Grand Slam as a player - is Englands designated scrum pathway coach tasked with helping to bring through the next generation of scrummagers in the mens and womens game.

www.talkingrugbyunion.co.uk

ETA: Oh, and he's doing the same thing on the women's side - which I hadn't noticed

Nathan Catt Interview: The objective is to make world-class scrummagers for the Red Roses

England pathway scrum coach Nathan Catt has already had a positive impact on the Mens Under-20s and his long-term vision for the Red Roses is to also create world-class scrummagers.

www.talkingrugbyunion.co.uk

 

[BPM]

Out of @Don't Skip Leg Day's list, I think it's safe to say you can probably rule out the majority ever making it to test level. However, if you look back, there's actually not a huge amount who do.

2015 was about the best crop with Genge and Paul Hill going on to become internationals. The others were Lewis Boyce and Seb Adeniran-Olule (who was killed in a car accident).

The only current international from 2016 is Will Stuart. Boyce, Billy Walker and Tom West were the other squad members.

Going back to the list, Marcus Street and Kai Owen were the only ones who I recall being genuinely tipped for bigger things. Both are only 25 so I wouldn't totally dismiss the possibility of them being late bloomers. A player in that age range coming good would be extremely useful. Maybe James Harper is that guy? At 23 he's still young for a tighthead and he's started looking good again post injury.

Luke Green was also highly rated but IIRC, he moved to the US when Irish went under?

It's too early to say, but the more recent crop seems a lot more promising. Baxter, Brantingham, Haffar and AOF are all impressing, while Fasogbon and Sela both look like they have the potential to do the same.

There might also be others that come out of nowhere without the U20 background. There's no-one obvious springing to mind, but with a few players doing well out of the BUCS program, you never know?

 

[Reiser99]

That's depressing. Well over half aren't even playing in the premiership let alone competing for places.

 

[BPM]

I think it's just more extreme with the props. Looking at those old squads, loads of players haven't made it.

It's also not specific to England. If you look at the other home nations as an example, the conversion rate from U20s to regular international starter is pretty low.