England 2024/25

[BPM]

Yeah, that’s more or less what I was getting at too. In theory, we have a number of good combinations that could be equally effective. Then it’s just a case of what’s best for the gameplan.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

My biggest wish is to see CCS more at 8 at Quins

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Personally, given we finally have a nice selection of flankers, I think we take advantage of it by not thinking of just a set of starters and bench options but instead start looking across an entire season, rotating the players to try to avoid too much workload and build a group where we can put together almost any combination and not suffer a drop off in performance.

You need to be able to cater for injuries, suspensions and loss of form etc as seamlessly as you can. But history also says that continuity and familiarity is a really big thing too (across the piece, not just back row). Tours like this, A fixtures and smart use of the bench all help development but generally I'm anti too much unforced rotation in the senior starting XV.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You need to be able to cater for injuries, suspensions and loss of form etc as seamlessly as you can. But history also says that continuity and familiarity is a really big thing too (across the piece, not just back row). Tours like this, A fixtures and smart use of the bench all help development but generally I'm anti too much unforced rotation in the senior starting XV.

I wouldn't propose chopping and changing each an every game but perhaps between the international windows just rotating players a bit. Build familiarity within any group of international games but build a broader team across a whole year. I just think using the same set the players all the time the second they are available leads to rushing players back, overwork, additional injuries and then a drop in form when they aren't available. Tuilagi and Billy V were prime examples, our gameplan revolved around them so much that, when they were (frequently) injured, we were trying to get another player to play their role until they were fit again.

Alternatively the scrumhalf situation under Jones where, once Care was gone, the only SH with any consistent gametime was Youngs. When his form dropped or he was unavailable, it was nothing but a mess of chopped and changed clearly 2nd choice players behind him with no apparent thought put into it.

It would be much better if, when players are injured or otherwise unavailable, we already have the next set up to speed and experienced. I think a few caps spread a bit wider and gameplans set to suit will in the long run benefit far more than putting all our eggs in one basket and hoping everyone is available. As we saw under Jones, when he had everyone he wanted for him gameplan, it could be deadly. As soon as we started losing players though, it could be awful. There didn't seem to be any resilience at all to change.

 

[higgik]

Yep. If he gets a shot I'll be very surprised if he doesn't take it. The Wilson comparison is bang on imo

I think Earl's time is limited. Willis should be sewing up 8 quite soon and we have better 7s

Depends on the balance.
Willis with curry x 2 would work, but so would
6 Hill, 7 Curry, 8 Earl, would also work.
It all depends on the gameplay and the opposition.

 

[BPM]

That final 4 is probably a decent result from an 'England XV' POV.

Having the Saracens and Gloucester contingent available is probably more useful than Bristol.

I'd be surprised if there are many capped players in there so probably something like:

1. Baxter / Iyogun
2. Langdon / Jibulu
3. Fasogbon / Davison
4. Coles / Lockett
5. Clark / Tizard
6. Kenningham / Clement
7. Pearson / Evans
8. Willis / Dombrandt
9. Porter / Englefield?
10. Benson / C. Atkinson
11. Murley / Ramm?
12. S. Atkinson / Hartley
13. Beard / Northmore
14. Elliott / Brown-Bampoe
15. Redshaw / Hodge

There's a couple in there I'm not at all sure on but I'm basing it upon the A squads so far and some where there isn't much choice but to use a capped player.

 

[Ddanno]

If Seb Atkinson isn't in there I am going to kick off.

 

[Geordie]

Earl is top class. Don't discount him. He's explosive, tough and his engine is insane. He's playing the same intensity at minute 80 that he was at minute 1. SB will value that immensely!

Masai White scored another today...his rise in the latter half of the season has been noticeable at 12. Atkinson also continues to play well.
With Lawrence clearly out for a long time were looking for a 13 as well

Anyone see Jibulus performance at hooker when he came on for Quins. He's moving to Sale this summer so they have some player on their hands next season...and potentially he could be another explosive hooking option coming through for England.

Disappointed with some of the Quins boys today mind... Beard, Kenningham etc ..but Bristol were playing well. Murley was good though and Benson might make the tour if we're looking for back up to Ford

 

[Ddanno]

Disappointed with some of the Quins boys today mind... Beard, Kenningham etc ..but Bristol were playing well. Murley was good though and Benson might make the tour if we're looking for back up to Ford

Away from home, nothing to play for and missing our spine I don't think we really targeted this one. I was watching Chiefs v Sale so can't really say more than that.

 

[Geordie]

Away from home, nothing to play for and missing our spine I don't think we really targeted this one. I was watching Chiefs v Sale so can't really say more than that.

Yeah that's fair....

 

[BPM]

That final 4 is probably a decent result from an 'England XV' POV.

Having the Saracens and Gloucester contingent available is probably more useful than Bristol.

I'd be surprised if there are many capped players in there so probably something like:

1. Baxter / Iyogun
2. Langdon / Jibulu
3. Fasogbon / Davison
4. Coles / Lockett
5. Clark / Tizard
6. Kenningham / Clement
7. Pearson / Evans
8. Willis / Dombrandt
9. Porter / Englefield?
10. Benson / C. Atkinson
11. Murley / Ramm?
12. S. Atkinson / Hartley
13. Beard / Northmore
14. Elliott / Brown-Bampoe
15. Redshaw / Hodge

There's a couple in there I'm not at all sure on but I'm basing it upon the A squads so far and some where there isn't much choice but to use a capped player.

I just read that losing semi finalists will be available for this so my squad would be updated to something like this (adding some Bristol and Sale players as I’m anticipating a Bath vs. Tigers final).

1. Rodd / Iyogun
2. Langdon / Oghre
3. Opoku-Fordjour / Fasogbon
4. Coles / Lockett
5. Clark / Batley
6. Kenningham/ Clement
7. Pearson / Evans
8. Dombrandt / Harding
9. Quirke / Porter
10. Benson / C. Atkinson
11. Murley / Ibitoye
12. S. Atkinson / Ma’asi White
13. Beard / Northmore
14. Elliott / Brown-Bampoe
15. Carpenter / Redshaw

Again, I’m seeing this as an A game in all but name. I can’t see many/any players who are more or less nailed on to tour being selected.

With this in mind, I’ve left out:

1. Baxter
2. George / Dan
3. N/A
4. Isiekwe
5. N/A
6. Cunningham-South
7. B. Curry
8. Willis
9. Randall
10. Ford
11. Sleightholme
12. Dingwall
13. N/A
14. Roebuck
15. Furbank (if fit)

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Slightly different topic, but would you (if you were Kyle Sinckler) come back to England to try and make it for the World Cup. He’s 32 and playing some great rugby with some good stats so far in the top 14.

A wc would be great but I was trying to think of any player that had actually transitioned back from the top 14 to the premiership and been a success. Guess I had the Mercer topic fresh on my mind, but I wonder if it would put players off coming back.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

No arguments from me if he proves he's good enough - he'll be 34 at the WC which is on the upper edge of the age range, but as a tight 5 forward you can add a few years to his effective range

I hope when he comes back he goes to a club with a good forwards coach and culture - like you said: by all accounts he's going really well in France. Would hate to see him come back and go right back to Bristol and drop off again.
Would've been a great pickup for Tigers this season to replace Cole. Them or Saracens would be the ideal place IMO

 

[BPM]

Saracens . For anyone who has come through the Quins academy, that should be an absolute no. Hence why Tizard is not liked.

Heyes is coming good at Tigers so it wouldn’t make sense to disrupt his development.

Who knows where we’ll be in a year or so, but as of right now I’m more interested in the ongoing development of Heyes, AOF, Fasogbon and Sela than I am with a risky return to Sinckler.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I was angling at the point that would a French based player risk coming back when it hasn’t seemed to have worked out for many who have.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ah, I getya

I think Sinckler will - he was pretty open about the next RWC being a big target when he went to France. I could see him only doing a 1, or a 1 plus optional 2nd, year contract though

 

[Which Tyler]

A wc would be great but I was trying to think of any player that had actually transitioned back from the top 14 to the premiership and been a success.

TBH, I'm struggling to think of any players who've transitioned back from T14.
Mercer and TWillis are the only ones I can think of, and surely Tom's been a success

 

[BPM]

Yeah, although his was always a temporary stint so I think the mindset is a bit different.

It’ll be interesting to see how Arundell does.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wade's gone well at Gloucester, but he also had the couple of years in the NFL too

Ashton and Haskell, too, but they're the previous generation

If T.Willis counts then there's Langdon too

 

[Ddanno]

Marchant's stint in NZ didn't do him any harm, although if memory serves he didn't play very many games.