England vs New Zealand - 15/11/2025

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

That's the thing.

But when he is on song, he makes a difference.

Itoje's going to be picked for the foreseeable, but I actually think Chessum is our premier lock now. He's obviously bulked up and while I used to think Borthwick's Plan A for him was 6, I no longer believe that.

Coles isn't at those levels but I thought he acquitted himself decently yesterday.

As for the Boks they're still relying a lot on Etzebeth (34), Mostert (34) de Jager (32) and Snyman (30). Some talent, but aging. Nortje has come through but I'm not sure about the real depth behind the old lags. Besides, in terms of the next RWC, I'm actually more bothered about what they're doing behind the scrum.

The boks will have new players coming through that’s no issue for them really.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Most people? Not sure about that. I think the general consensus with Martin is that he flatters to deceive. A bigger reputation than his actual performances deserve.

Who are Scotland's 'so many better locks' and the Italians that relegate them to 3rd/4th choice?

Anyway - you said they probably wouldn't make top 10 squads and then mostly contradicted yourself.

I can't decide whether you're overrating other players or seriously underrating Ewels and Coles.

Scotland have
Cummings
Sykes
Gilchrist
All comfortably better I would take Grey, Henderson, Williamson and Brown over Coles and Ewels also

Italy I would take Cannone and Ruzza (I think he has a lot of potential)

Ok so they would get into the squads of Italy and Fiji so they wouldn’t get into 8 of the top 10 teams

I’m underrating them if anything because I think Ewels is miles away from the level and Coles is just meh (I don’t think he shouldn’t be in the squad but we need better to bridge)

 

[NickBD]

Locks
The gap between Itoje, Chessum and Martin and Coles + Ewels is scary massive for me. We really need someone to step up and fill bridge that gap. It's like going from 3 world class options to 2 players that prob wouldn't get into any of the top 10 squads.

I agree on Ewels but not Coles. I think he's pretty good and last few games have shown that. He just beat NZ that should be enough he can play at that level whole I agree hes not at the level of the big 3 its not a scary massive drop. You're gonna have a massive drop off for any team once you get past the 4 starting locks.

You'd hope Ben Bamber starts getting some play time soon because he should be the next one getting mins not Ewels again. I'd put Ewels in with Isekewe, Lockett and maybe Batley. All good players but not international level. Soon hopefully we see Sodeke and Kpoku after the world cup, who very good prospects. I think that is a good group.

 

[higgik]

I'll be interested to see how Pollock does against the boks. Against UBB who have some very big boys he looked very out of place and thought he struggled against the bigger Aus players.

But he is a perfect impact sub for England. in a 6/2 bench split I would be interested to see Ilione and Pollock together on the bench that would be some serious firepower.

Props wise
Iyogun is only 24 so plenty of time but I feel he's got a lot to develop first.
Fasogbon is firmly behind AOF and IMO Sela will have a massive push once he gets more game time with Bath (Not saying he should have more game time now just in the next few seasons his development is going to be crazy)

Locks
The gap between Itoje, Chessum and Martin and Coles + Ewels is scary massive for me. We really need someone to step up and fill bridge that gap. It's like going from 3 world class options to 2 players that prob wouldn't get into any of the top 10 squads.

Back row
I'm a massive Earl fan so it was great to see him at his best again.
Underhill is at his best again and is genuinely a game winner with his defence.
I do worry against a big pack like SA how we will fair and that might be where we really will miss a player like Willis.

Maybe we start a bigger back row.

 

[NickBD]

Maybe we start a bigger back row.

By next year I think if Martin is fit I think him or Chessum will start at 6 with CCS will be the start 8 by then. By default it will get bigger.

 

[BPM]

Scotland have
Cummings
Sykes
Gilchrist
All comfortably better I would take Grey, Henderson, Williamson and Brown over Coles and Ewels also

Italy I would take Cannone and Ruzza (I think he has a lot of potential)

Ok so they would get into the squads of Italy and Fiji so they wouldn't get into 8 of the top 10 teams

I'm underrating them if anything because I think Ewels is miles away from the level and Coles is just meh (I don't think he shouldn't be in the squad but we need better to bridge)

I mean it's all subjective, but some of those names are strange calls IMO. Particularly the Scottish ones. Cummings, yes, maybe Gilchrist, but I genuinely don't think a single on of the others makes the England squad ahead of Coles or Ewels. Gray back in the day but not now.

I like Cannone and Ruzza but I struggle to see how they're objectively better. Plus, the fact you can only name two strongly suggests Ewels & Coles would have an excellent chance of making their squad. Not probably lose out as you originally suggested.

Other than Kremer and Petti, who do Argentina have who is better/who stops them making the squad?

Ireland have 4 good locks, but after that they have Murray with 2 caps, Izechukwu who is more of an 6 and Treadwell who's no longer eligible. Coles or Ewels would be one injury away from making their squad.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Scotland have
Cummings
Sykes
Gilchrist
All comfortably better I would take Grey, Henderson, Williamson and Brown over Coles and Ewels also

Italy I would take Cannone and Ruzza (I think he has a lot of potential)

Ok so they would get into the squads of Italy and Fiji so they wouldn't get into 8 of the top 10 teams

I'm underrating them if anything because I think Ewels is miles away from the level and Coles is just meh (I don't think he shouldn't be in the squad but we need better to bridge)

You are delusional. I’d take most premiership lock combos before taking the Scottish or Italian locks let alone Coles who had the all court game of runs and offloads that’s he’s also added to with his tight play after adding more weight this season.

Ewels is hated by a lot of England fans but also his form and what he brings is underrated. He would 100% be starting for Scotland if he was Scottish.

 

[BPM]

By next year I think if Martin is fit I think him or Chessum will start at 6 with CCS will be the start 8 by then. By default it will get bigger.

I don't think so. Borthwick has already said words to the effect of 'we don't have a load of big guys to play a power game so we're focusing on a very good group of smaller, more mobile players'.

 

[higgik]

By next year I think if Martin is fit I think him or Chessum will start at 6 with CCS will be the start 8 by then. By default it will get bigger.

But depends on opposition.
Yesterday the speed and dog in the back row, worked to stiffle the ABs, whereas v Boks or France we use a bigger pack to go toe to toe.

 

[BPM]

You are delusional. I'd take most premiership lock combos before taking the Scottish or Italian locks let alone Coles who had the all court game of runs and offloads that's he's also added to with his tight play after adding more weight this season.

Ewels is hated by a lot of England fans but also his form and what he brings is underrated. He would 100% be starting for Scotland if he was Scottish.

Indeed. To be fair, a lot of the Ewels hate comes from the dumb red cards. Some of it is justified, but it’s most of it is based upon outdated opinions that have nothing to do with his actual form.

He and Coles significantly out performed their Argentinian opposite numbers in the summer but apparently wouldn’t make their squad

 

[BPM]

My last point on this - I’m not a huge cheerleader for either player., but I think they’re perfectly good enough to be 4th/5th choice. Better than most nations can call upon at that point in the depth chart.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

On Martin, I do hope he gets some proper recovery, we don’t need another player who plays every now and again, we need to let him fully receive as he does offer something different although I was never calling him to replace Chessum, for me at the time he should have replaced Itoje but thinks have moved on and Itoje and Chessum and both world class locks now.

Also worth noting when Coles was on he was packing down on the right head side of the scrum. I know he’s added a load of bulk and is bigger than Itoje. I can’t remember which side he played when he played with Chessum though.

 

[BPM]

But depends on opposition.
Yesterday the speed and dog in the back row, worked to stiffle the ABs, whereas v Boks or France we use a bigger pack to go toe to toe.

So if I understand correctly, your ‘bigger pack’ has Martin back with Chessum playing 6 and CCS at 8 and then (I assume) Curry at 7?

It’s a bit bigger but is it better? Trying to beat the Boks at their own game won’t work because we don’t have the personnel to do it. We need to find another way to beat them.

 

[Saintjay]

Hasn't Borthwick said we don't have the pack size to beat people up like in days of old. That England need to play differently due to the pack/players they have now and not based on England of old.

 

[Becca]

Hasn't Borthwick said we don't have the pack size to beat people up like in days of old. That England need to play differently due to the pack/players they have now and not based on England of old.

Playing to your strengths just seems obvious

 

[LIONSxv]

So if I understand correctly, your 'bigger pack' has Martin back with Chessum playing 6 and CCS at 8 and then (I assume) Curry at 7?

It's a bit bigger but is it better? Trying to beat the Boks at their own game won't work because we don't have the personnel to do it. We need to find another way to beat them.

Some people are still obsessed with playing a lock at 6.

It's absolutely no coincidence that all of England's best runs of form over the past 10 years is with playing specialist flankers at 6 and 7

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Playing to your strengths just seems obvious

I’d agree but the constant SB obsession with changing back to that kicking gameplan at times screams of a man who doesn’t follow that rule (to his folly).

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Some people are still obsessed with playing a lock at 6.

It's absolutely no coincidence that all of England's best runs of form over the past 10 years is with playing specialist flankers at 6 and 7

 

[BPM]

I'd agree but the constant SB obsession with changing back to that kicking gameplan at times screams of a man who doesn't follow that rule (to his folly).

At what point is he going to get some credit from you?

 

[Scotty]

I'd agree but the constant SB obsession with changing back to that kicking gameplan at times screams of a man who doesn't follow that rule (to his folly).

You want him to play to who he has and in Freeman, Roebuck and Steward it suits a kicking gameplan, plus when we do have ball in hand our attack is quick and improving quite alot. I actually think we have a good balance. And the ball in hand play will improve even more under Blackett.

I really dont hate a kicking gameplan when done right and balanced with an attack when it's on.