Ideas to improve the standard of rugby in the NH

[Shovenose]

Yep or you could say that in 7 finals. NH teams have been in six of those. SA have only been in two finals to be fare they missed a few comps. England and France three finals with France being in the top four six times only matched by New Zealand. Stats are what you make them, but thank you for the math lesson.

France got blown away in 2 of those 3 and England got there in 91 thanks to NZ and Aus dooking it out in a semi. But in the end 5 out of the 7 times the NH were beaten by a SH team in the final. When is the last time a NH team went and win two games in a row to win a test series against a SH team? NH teams rely on a odd win here and there to create the illusion that world beaters on a consistant bases. I mean ffs just check how England celebrate losses these days like some minnow who manage to concede less than a 100 points against a tier 1 team.

 

[Teh Mite]

Oh god, here we go for the rest of Summer...

 

[admartian]

France got blown away in 2 of those 3 and England got there in 91 thanks to NZ and Aus dooking it out in a semi. But in the end 5 out of the 7 times the NH were beaten by a SH team in the final. When is the last time a NH team went and win two games in a row to win a test series against a SH team? NH teams rely on a odd win here and there to create the illusion that world beaters on a consistant bases. I mean ffs just check how England celebrate losses these days like some minnow who manage to concede less than a 100 points against a tier 1 team.

I agree with this to an extent, and points to my rpevious point.

Losing/winning close games are good, but are not indications of "turning things around".

 

[lucky number 7]

France got blown away in 2 of those 3 and England got there in 91 thanks to NZ and Aus dooking it out in a semi. But in the end 5 out of the 7 times the NH were beaten by a SH team in the final. When is the last time a NH team went and win two games in a row to win a test series against a SH team? NH teams rely on a odd win here and there to create the illusion that world beaters on a consistant bases. I mean ffs just check how England celebrate losses these days like some minnow who manage to concede less than a 100 points against a tier 1 team.

I believe Ireland have beaten SA 3 in the last 4 times we have played you...I could be wrong as I'm rather locked...but I was at these games and it was lovely seeing Ronan O'Gara run in a try one of these times...comical infact

 

[TrueSlawter]

It would have to be a western region against an eastern region, or Scarlets + Ospreys, and Cardiff + Newport. Of course you could just create new clubs and have these clubs remain in a Celtic league and become feeder clubs for the Super 15 sides. The other countries can figure it out for themselves.

That will never happen, also the fact you suggested it means you dont understand the fact how much rivalry is between Neath / Swansea and Llanelli, likewise Cardiff and Newport.. They would never merge, there is enough trouble in the Blues with the cardiff v ponty rivaly to show super regions would never work.

 

[Teh Mite]

Why not "mega-regions" instead, amalgamating the cream from all the sites on a 300-400 mile radius. We could even make up rules that you could only play for these side if born within the pre-defined perimeter of that region. Or had a relative do so.

Or have just lived there for a while.





Hold on...

 

[Dizzy]

I can't speak for the other SH nations, but in NZ, It seems everytime we do an end of year tour, or the june internationals, we are experimenting with our players and manage to still win consistently. So that in itself says enough surely... To be fair, this year we did put out a pretty strong squad and our debutants are pretty much top of the notch combined with Ireland losing some of their own big names, BUT, it happens almost every time. We tend to experiment with NH squads and still win consistently.

 

[Melhor Time]

First off, move the rugby season to summer so that it aligns with the southern hemisphere. Less foul weather will mean more exciting, running rugby than turgid battles in the mud.

The thing is players benefit so much more from having their break during the summer. Having a break at the coldest times January-February is far from ideal for preperation for the new season.

That said, the calenders can be altered to have a better set up without question. The Six Nations could be in May with the club finals in June and tours to the SH in July. Season restarting in September rather than August and November internationals can remain as they are.

Next, shut down the Celtic League, Aviva Premiership and Top 14 and establish a new, 15 team competition, along the lines of the Super Rugby championship.

No thanks. The Top 14 is great. Pro 12 is not but that can be sorted by teams stopping to rest their key players in prefernce for the Heineken Cup. If it can be modified like how France and England want so that the top 6 qualify for the Heineken Cup then it will be a much improved league, and indeed, product.

You’ll have three conferences, one English conference, one French conference, and one Celtic conference (with two teams from Ireland, two from Wales and one from Scotland).

Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon, Castres and Montpellier only. No Racing Métro, no Biarritz, no Stade Français. This is not going to be an improvement.

Harlequins, Leicester, Saracens, Northampton, Exeter. No Gloucester, no Bath, no London Irish. Again, England would not benefit.

This would ensure that the very best players in the NH would be playing each other week in, week out.

I see your point, but it would´t matter as the real problem is what I said in my second point. i.e. the Pro 12 is poor because temas are able to rest players as it doesn´t matter whether a team wins matches or not.. it´ll still qualify for the Heineken Cup.

Next, to increase the excitement, have every team in this league play their Super 14 equivalent at the end of the season. So the highest team in the NH league plays the highest team in the SH league, the lowest ranked plays the lowest ranked, etc.

Would work well but only as a Super Rugby Champ vs Heineken Cup Champ. If, as I said above, the calender were to be altered to have the H Cup Final in June then this would mean it would certainly be possible to be played in the first week of July allowing time for the Super Rugby season to finish and not getting in the way of international matches that month.

Furthermore, scrap the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship. Introduce three leagues of six international teams, with promotion and relegation every year.

That would mean that some teams, like say Wales and Ireland, could be in and out of the top league, but it would also provide a way for international teams outside the Six Nations to climb up the ladder.

Replacing the Six Nations and TRC with a a world league is not feasible because it will deplete the importance of the World Cup and will not be able to generate the same kind of revenue.

I would scrap the Six Nations and have a Euro event every four years. The top 10 European sides based on IRB World Rankings qualify.To be hosted by one country, where possible. A tournament of 2 Pools of 5. Effectively, half the teams from the World Cup divided into Pools A and B based on World Rankings on December 01 the previous year. Could be played in April once every four years.

Pool A England, Georgia, Ireland, Italy, Spain
Pool B France, Romania, Russia, Scotland, Wales,

Would be nice but would need to prove to generate a lot of money to ever get the go ahead. The Lions tour will survive and continue as normal. To fill in the calender on the three other years a number of options are possible but I doubt any of the 6N will want to change their competition at all. Something needs to happen in the coming years to assist Georgia though.

 

[Melhor Time]

I can't speak for the other SH nations, but in NZ, It seems everytime we do an end of year tour, or the june internationals, we are experimenting with our players and manage to still win consistently. So that in itself says enough surely... To be fair, this year we did put out a pretty strong squad and our debutants are pretty much top of the notch combined with Ireland losing some of their own big names, BUT, it happens almost every time. We tend to experiment with NH squads and still win consistently.

It does not work for Australia or South Africa who have both lost recently vs Scotland at Murrayfield and vs Ireland in Dublin. The losses in Scotland had plenty to do with who was playing for the SH teams. Ireland won more because Ireland is strong now, unlike around the period ending in 2000.

 

[welshglory]

I'd like to see the Lions tour and Barbarians scrapped. The Lions tour is pretty pointless for the most part and just ruins what progress Wales makes. No one seems to care about the Baa-Baas these days (the Wales game doesn't count, they just wanted to watch Wales!), i'd rather have tests against tier 2 countries. Scrapping the Baa-Baas probably won't help improve the standard of rugby in the NH but i just wanted to get it off my chest!

 

[dasNdanger]

The main problem with switching to summer is that not all countries in the NH are 'big, damp, foggy islands nor'nor'east of Ushant'. Summer can be pretty brutal in other places (such as the horrible weather we're having here in the States, with the whole of the country 90 degrees F plus). I believe excessive heat will affect the quality of the game and player performance. A 'once in a blue moon' steamer isn't the same as playing an entire season in hot, muggy weather...depending on country, of course. Pretty sure rugby could be easily played in Scotland even on it's hottest summer day, which is probably something like 65 degrees F.


Also, not sure how everyone playing at one time would affect interest in the game. Right now I can pretty much watch rubgy 360, bouncing between NH-SH seasons and the various competitions. But if all rugby was limited to my very busy summer months, I would have to cut my viewing in half. Me? I'd opt to watch SH games over the Northern because I just could not make room for it all. That could mean fewer world viewers, and possibly less interest overall in the game (not sure if it would affect match attendance - probably not).

Right now I don't think switching seasons is the answer. As others have mentioned, if you want to improve the quality of the game, you have to improve the play and the players of the game. That starts with the youth leagues, and works its way up to the top - to the professional coaches and players. A few years back when I first started watching rugby, I noticed immediately how lean and fit the players looked. Over the past few years I've noticed bigger bellies. Is fitness a problem? I don't know. I've also noticed a tendency for some teams to put all their rugby eggs in one basket. I remember back when Wilkinson was in top form it seemed like England expected him to carry every game, and it didn't work out so good for them. This is team, not individual, sport. I think players can get lazy if they think there's a good boot on the team to save their asses when things go south.

Good kicking is a must, but it shouldn't be the entire game. I prefer the flow of the SH game - it's faster, with more passing and running and those delicious little grubber kicks and less kicking for territory (though it's sneaking in more and more - personally, I find the latter boring as hell, esp. when it dominates play). At least that's how it seems to me. I may be totally off, and forgive me if I sound like a noob - this is the first time in all my years of watching the game that I can actually discuss and analyze it with fellow fans, so I am weak on understanding some of the more technical aspects of the game.

Another thing that's important to rugby and its development in the NH is getting the US on board. Slowly the game is catching on here, but it's in big competition with the up and coming soccer football, which has recently gained wider interest, mostly, I think, due to the number of immigrants that have come here over the past 10 years. And, of course, there's gridiron football, which is like a religion here. However, I think there's room for rugby, too. The US is a huge market. Selling the game over here can mean more money for the sport, and more money for the development of junior leagues, and more money for the adult leagues to bring in the best players.

But money won't be coming in if teams don't put on a good show, and if you have too many lopsided scores. I think the question is - what comes first, improving the game, or bringing in more money? You need one for the other, and visa versa (this is true in any sport). In this I do think changing the competitions up a bit might be a good thing, but I'm not even going to speculate about how to do that since I really have no idea how the NH competions work in the first place!

Bottom line? Fans = money = better player development = improved quality of competition = fans...and round and round it goes.



das

 

[BRSTLDRGN]

I'd like to see the Lions tour and Barbarians scrapped. The Lions tour is pretty pointless for the most part and just ruins what progress Wales makes. No one seems to care about the Baa-Baas these days (the Wales game doesn't count, they just wanted to watch Wales!), i'd rather have tests against tier 2 countries. Scrapping the Baa-Baas probably won't help improve the standard of rugby in the NH but i just wanted to get it off my chest!

No, can't get rid of the Lions, they're too important to the teams and the players who get picked to go on these tours. I love watching the Lions, always have since 2001, the first tour I can remember actively watching.

 

[big ginger 8]

Thank you for all the replies; I’ll try to deal with some of the individual objections.



I don’t believe moving to summer would change it being a ‘game for all shapes and sizes’. As we see SH teams that play in relatively good conditions all year round, such as South Africa and Australia, still have plenty of props. SA are actually known for their forward orientated play even though they play on dry, dusty pitches most of the time!

Also remember that playing in the summer wouldn’t actually mean sunny weather and dry pitches. It’s summer now and it’s been ******* down across Ireland and the UK for more than a month. But playing in summer would mean there are less turgid, slow matches. There would still be arm-wrestling, just not so much mudwrestling.



Well the decision would have to be a financial and geographical one. There’s no point basing it on performance since the makeup of the teams would probably change completely before the start of the competition. The teams that don’t make it would continue to play in their respective leagues, just like the Air New Zealand Cup, Currie Cup, etc., and become feeder cup for the regional Super 15 sides.



This has already been tried to some extent in Wales when the new regional clubs were created for the Celtic League. It’s true that some refused to support the new teams, but the results speak for themselves – 3 Grand Slams and a WC semi-final, after three decades of limited or no success. They were controversial to begin with but the regions have long since won their place.



It would have to be a western region against an eastern region, or Scarlets + Ospreys, and Cardiff + Newport. Of course you could just create new clubs and have these clubs remain in a Celtic league and become feeder clubs for the Super 15 sides. The other countries can figure it out for themselves.



The matches this summer suggest the gap is closing but it will be interesting to see if this continues or if it’s just a blip because the SH sides are in rebuilding mode after the World Cup.

England in the early 2000s aside we’ve had over a hundred years of SH dominance. Narrow losses and a tie don’t make much of a dent in that record. The NH needs to take drastic action if it wants to raise the standard and compete regularly against the SH teams. The SH international players play at a higher standard because they play against the best week in week out, not a few times a year in the Heineken Cup. Europe needs a top quality league rather than the comparatively low (and diluted) quality we see in the divided Celtic, English and French premier leagues.



Most NH and SH teams play each other at least once, if not twice, a year anyway. The only difference is that the summer and autumn matches would actually count for something.

Rugby was designed as a Winter sport and there are plenty of reasons for that. Anyway lets run with your argument you realise you're kind of contradicting yourself you want it moved to Summer for more exciting running rugby yet as you say South Africa play forward orientated rugby in relatively good conditions. The fact some countries have a tradition for certain rugby and that's not just going to change they are stereotypes but they are built up over more than a hundred years and ring true for the majority of those years. England play a more forward based game, Wales play a flowing passing game, Scotland play a quick rucking game, France are unpredictable but generally a flair team and Ireland are a more balanced team leaning towards a forwards game. Something you don't seem to have considered with this move to Summer is the youth levels. Now I can only speak for Ireland but it does seem to be the case in many countries but schools rugby is where it's at for underage rugby. School here runs from September-May in Ireland Summer is June-August how will this work?

Could you really support a West or East franchise? I couldn't for an Irish team. This is a big thing I believe the Super 15 lacks a lot of the passion of the H Cup. Sure they sell out for the crunch matches but for most of the other matches especially in Aus and N.Z. there are **** all people at the games (though this does has a lot to do with scheduling). The H Cup is a fantastic competition (not at all saying the Super 15 isn't in it's own right) and it being spread out makes it more of a challenge as it really tests squad depth.

Finally a World League is as has been mentioned something that would undermine the World Cup and make it pointless.

 

[dasNdanger]

This is a big thing I believe the Super 15 lacks a lot of the passion of the H Cup. Sure they sell out for the crunch matches but for most of the other matches especially in Aus and N.Z. there are **** all people at the games (though this does has a lot to do with scheduling). The H Cup is a fantastic competition (not at all saying the Super 15 isn't in it's own right) and it being spread out makes it more of a challenge as it really tests squad depth.

I find Super Rugby far more exciting than H Cup, but I'm watching on tv and never have gone to any pro matches in the NH or SH, and I have no idea what fan enthusiasm is like for these respective competitions. I will say that a few games ago (not sure if it was during Super Rugby or the spring test matches), one of the commentators said something about it being better to watch the game at home in front of the fire, sipping a glass of wine. Perhaps this is a SH mentality - watching at home instead of freezing one's arse off in the stadium? Thoughts?


das

 

[racingmetrofan]

Minus New Zealand everyone is on a similar level.

France could be much better if they had more international fixtures against quality opposition and shortened their domestic league (and a better coach), England need a good coach (haven't had that over the last few years) and need to be better at bringing players through.

Rabo teams need a massively expanded player base, more investment on resources (coaching, e.g. scrums for Ireland), and more long term planning.

For a short term point of view, scrap the Lions.

 

[dasNdanger]

Minus New Zealand everyone is on a similar level.

France could be much better if they had more international fixtures against quality opposition and shortened their domestic league (and a better coach), England need a good coach (haven't had that over the last few years) and need to be better at bringing players through.

Rabo teams need a massively expanded player base, more investment on resources (coaching, e.g. scrums for Ireland), and more long term planning.

For a short term point of view, scrap the Lions.

When you say everyone, who are you including? A-team speaking, I wouldn't say that Italy is on the same level as Australia, or that the US is on the same level as South Africa. I think there's three tiers of quality in the international game - the top (NZ, SA, France, etc), the middlings (Scotland, Italy, Argentina, etc), and the bottom of the heap (any team that gets blown out by the top and middle teams ).


das

 

[BZHopenside]

From what I've seen on tv, the Super XV, with the exception of the South Island (Crusaders, Highlanders), doesn't seem to have the same amount of crowd support as something like the Top 14. Maybe it has to do with how many French clubs only have 10-20,000 seat stadiums, while the SH teams have to fill places like Eden and Ellis Park reguarly, but I think it also has to do with the sense of history connected to the league, with has been running nearly contiunuously since for over a century.

 

[Macsen]

In the World Cup Ireland were able to turn over Australia, Wales were extremely competitive against South Africa, England beat Argentina and a French side in turmoil lost by a point to the All Blacks in Auckland. On that evidence there isn't a massive gap in standards between the two hemispheres.

My concern is that there has always been ‘not a massive gap between the two hemispheres’ – and yet, the gap remains. Ireland were the only team that managed to beat one of the big three SH sides at the World Cup. During the summer tours, neither of the NH teams managed to beat the big SH sides after numerous attempts. It’s the same old story year after year after year. You can say the games are close, but that’s not what matters. A 30-29 defeat is just as much of a defeat as a 60-0 trouncing. I’d be very surprised if we start seeing NH sides beating SH sides on a consistent basis over the next few years.

They would never merge, there is enough trouble in the Blues with the cardiff v ponty rivaly to show super regions would never work.

As I said, they wouldn’t necessarily have to merge anything. All you need to do is create the 15 Super teams and situate them wherever is best in terms of geography and finance. The players would come because of the money being paid, the viewers would come because of the quality of the rugby, and whoever wants to support the teams would come, the rest can stay away if they don’t like it. After a few years new rivalries will have formed in place of the old ones, new history will be created, and people will feel the same attachment to these ‘new’ clubs as they did to the old.

The thing is players benefit so much more from having their break during the summer. Having a break at the coldest times January-February is far from ideal for preperation for the new season.

Are you sure? Given Wales’ success after training in Poland it seems that they benefit more from the cold weather.

I'd like to see the Lions tour and Barbarians scrapped. The Lions tour is pretty pointless for the most part and just ruins what progress Wales makes. No one seems to care about the Baa-Baas these days (the Wales game doesn't count, they just wanted to watch Wales!), i'd rather have tests against tier 2 countries. Scrapping the Baa-Baas probably won't help improve the standard of rugby in the NH but i just wanted to get it off my chest!

I can’t agree with scrapping the Lions, though I agree that the Barbarians could be put to better use. I’d like to see a final, NH XV v SH XV match at the end of the Autumn Internationals. That would be fun.

The main problem with switching to summer is that not all countries in the NH are 'big, damp, foggy islands nor'nor'east of Ushant'. Summer can be pretty brutal in other places (such as the horrible weather we're having here in the States, with the whole of the country 90 degrees F plus).

I think different countries would have to make their own decisions regarding playing during summer. In some countries it would obviously be impossible, and they would have to play during a different cycle, just as the SH and NH do now. I’m thinking mainly of the European sides, here.

Also, not sure how everyone playing at one time would affect interest in the game. Right now I can pretty much watch rubgy 360, bouncing between NH-SH seasons and the various competitions. But if all rugby was limited to my very busy summer months, I would have to cut my viewing in half.

Fair enough, but I think you may be in the minority in that you watch so much rugby there isn’t time for any more. You can always record and watch it later.

Right now I don't think switching seasons is the answer. As others have mentioned, if you want to improve the quality of the game, you have to improve the play and the players of the game.

I agree completely, but I don’t think the need to improve one thing means you can’t improve other aspects. My worry is that the SH dominence is so consistent that there must be some over-arching, structural reasons why we aren’t matching them, which goes beyond the talent of induvidual players. I’m only suggesting some ideas for improving NH rugby, there are a lot of other things that could be done of course.

Rugby was designed as a Winter sport and there are plenty of reasons for that. Anyway lets run with your argument you realise you're kind of contradicting yourself you want it moved to Summer for more exciting running rugby yet as you say South Africa play forward orientated rugby in relatively good conditions.

I don’t see any contradiction here. You can play a forward orientated game on a dry pitch like you can play a forward oriantated game on a wet pitch; but it’s much harder to play a quick, running game on a wet pitch than it is on a dry pitch.

Something you don't seem to have considered with this move to Summer is the youth levels. Now I can only speak for Ireland but it does seem to be the case in many countries but schools rugby is where it's at for underage rugby. School here runs from September-May in Ireland Summer is June-August how will this work?

School age rugby would obviously still have to be played during the school term. I’m talking about professional rugby.

Finally a World League is as has been mentioned something that would undermine the World Cup and make it pointless.

I don’t think that is the case. A three tier, six team league would mean that games between, say, Scotland and Australia, would actually be rarer than they are now. Pretty much every big team in the NH and every big team in the SH play each other every year now. Does that undermine the World Cup? Such a league would mean that teams such as Wales and Ireland would have to fight they way into the top league to secure games against the very best, so it would make those games even more special.

 

[big ginger 8]

School age rugby would obviously still have to be played during the school term. I’m talking about professional rugby.



I don’t think that is the case. A three tier, six team league would mean that games between, say, Scotland and Australia, would actually be rarer than they are now. Pretty much every big team in the NH and every big team in the SH play each other every year now. Does that undermine the World Cup? Such a league would mean that teams such as Wales and Ireland would have to fight they way into the top league to secure games against the very best, so it would make those games even more special.

So you expect players to play their youth rugby in Winter conditions and then their careers in the Summer? Coaches will pick player suited for the conditions they're plying in and these are the ones who come through they'll also be used to a gameplan this is where they're been moulded.

Yes it does a bit. That's why they've out the new tour structures in place Ireland won't go to N.Z. for probably at least 12 years possibly 24.

 

[donmcdazzle]

So you expect players to play their youth rugby in Winter conditions and then their careers in the Summer? Coaches will pick player suited for the conditions they're plying in and these are the ones who come through they'll also be used to a gameplan this is where they're been moulded.

That's a redundant argument. In NZ the Super 15 season starts way before any school or club rugby does, and the ITM cup is played after club and school rugby is finished. Hasn't hurt our players development.