England vs France players: who plays more ?

[Big Ewis]

According to Rugbynistère, one of the two major French Rugby websites, you'll all find it interesting to check out the following stats.
They went position by position, comparing one French player to his English counterpart/equivalent:

Key: titularisations=starts; first statline is club, second country (see first example: Joe Marler= Harlequins, XV de la Rose i.e. England)

Joe Marler
24 matchs, 24 titularisations = 1604 minutes de jeu avec les Harlequins
10 matchs, 9 titularisations = 599 minutes avec le XV de la Rose
Total = 2203 minutes.

/

Thomas Domingo
22 matchs, 19 titularisations = 1190 minutes de jeu avec Clermont
9 matchs, 6 titularisations = 425 minutes de jeu avec les Bleus
Total = 1615 minutes
.

Joe Lauchnbury
22 matchs, 18 titularisations = 1540 minutes de jeu avec les London Wasps
11 matchs, 11 titularisations = 758 minutes de jeu avec le XV de la Rose
Total : 2298 minutes.

/

Yoann Maestri
25 matchs, 19 titularisations = 1535 minutes de jeu avec le Stade Toulousain
11 matchs, 10 titularisations = 719 minutes de jeu avec les Bleus
Total : 2254 minutes.


Chris Robshaw :
22 matchs, 22 titularisations = 1732 minutes avec les Harlequins.
11 matchs, 11 titularisations = 880 minutes avec le XV de la Rose.
Total : 2612 minutes.

/

Yannick Nyanga
23 matchs, 17 titularisations = 1413 minutes avec le Stade Toulousain.
6 matchs, 4 titularisations = 298 minutes en Bleu.
Total : 1711 minutes.


Mako Vunipola :
22 matchs, 21 titularisations = 1630 minutes avec les Saracens.
8 matchs, 7 titularisations = 428 minutes avec le XV de la Rose.
Total = 2058 minutes.

/

Louis Picamoles :
25 matchs, 19 titularisations = 1499 minutes sur le terrain avec le Stade Toulousain.
6 matchs, 4 titularisations) = 304 minutes avec le XV de France.
Total : 1803 minutes.


Danny Care
23 matchs, 21 titularisations = 1525 minutes de jeu avec les Harlequins
7 matchs, 6 titularisations = 459 minutes de jeu avec le XV de la Rose
Total : 1984 minutes.

/

Maxime Machenaud
25 matchs, 22 titularisations = 1639 minutes de jeu avec le Racing Métro
7 matchs, 4 titularisations = 374 minutes de jeu avec les Bleus
Total : 2013 minutes.


Owen Farrell
22 matchs, 19 titularisations = 1415 minutes de jeu avec les Saracens
9 matchs, 9 titularisations = 706 minutes de jeu avec le XV de la Rose
Total : 2121 minutes.

/

Rémi Talès

26 matchs, 23 titularisations = 1690 minutes de jeu avec Castres
8 matchs, 6 titularisations = 500 minutes de jeu avec les Bleus
Total : 2190 minutes .


Luther Burell
27 matchs, 26 titularisations : 2089 minutes de jeu avec Northampton
7 matchs, 6 titularisations : 481 minutes de jeu avec le XV de la Rose
Total : 2570 minutes

/

Wesley Fofana
18 matchs, 17 titularisations : 1313 minutes de jeu avec Clermont
9 matchs, 9 titularisations : 706 minutes de jeu avec les Bleus
Total : 2019 minutes.



Mike Brown
24 matchs, 24 titularisations = 1817 minutes de jeu avec les Harlequins
11 matchs, 11 titularisations = 873 minutes de jeu avec le XV de la Rose
Total = 2690 minutes.

/

Brice Dulin
22 matchs, 20 titularisations = 1580 minutes de jeu avec Castres
11 matchs, 10 titularisations = 826 minutes de jeu avec les Bleus
Total = 2406 minutes.


As you can see, if not for a couple of exceptions in Machenaud and Talès, this layout of the facts is a total myth-buster.
Important notes: English players do get a longer inter-season rest, and some guys may be injured in that list so the numbers are only to give a global idea. But a good one still.
The article mentions the difference in style, with the Top 14 being more physical/rough and "committed" while the Prem is more "spacious" (or "light") and rhythmic" (translating word for word).

Make your own opinion through this. Because the facts are also this: France got outplayed, and couldn't keep up with Australia, while England showed fantastic resistance in the first 2 (but then fell prey to a masterclass showing in the 3rd). Obviously, England are way, way more apt to play SH teams.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The off/pre-season length is the key though... AFAIK the French off-season is practically non-existant?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Number of Minutes on the pitch only tell half the story, it's the intensity of those minutes.

 

[Big Ewis]

Number of Minutes on the pitch only tell half the story, it's the intensity of those minutes.

indeed. But even if those stats are "only stats" and don't depict all of the reality out there, I'm aiming towards a 'France don't need excuses' argument. I genuinely thought, with a Top 14, the fact we have so many games, English league has just 12 teams, more rest for the players, etc....etc....lots of figures to look at in terms of measuring the difference in activity/rest between the two nations; so yeah I genuinely thought France were at a screaming disadvantage with other teams. Which of course has some element of truth in it, but then those stats show that the English players, although playing more, can still be very relevant as they group up and tour the no.1 nation, and be consistent at that.
So that gives me an element of answer, an interesting one. Everybody was saying how lethargic France looked in Australia, how exhausted physically, the body language etc...it's mental. These guys just literally need nothing more than a new coaching staff, and yeaaah they can be a bit tired but hey, that's not nearly the issue. And PSA clings onto to that as one of his main arguments as to explaining France's form. But it ain't no thang. They could be tired be still play competitive, organized Rugby. Fudge it.

 

[gaston le gaff]

not sure what the English players get for hols but for example Montpellier have just had nearly 5 weeks off and are now back as from the 19th, bar the Internationals and others who played rest of the world games etc. they are here for 2 weeks then get another week off so nearly 7 weeks between seasons. then its all go the 1st game is 25th July v Saracens (with Hamilton and Figallo) then Clermont (CHALLENGE VAQUERIN) London Irish in Grenoble ( swiss thing that started last pre season) and the 15/16th Aug we start the TOP 14 fixtures out the 5th july.

 

[Big Ewis]

not sure what the English players get for hols but for example Montpellier have just had nearly 5 weeks off and are now back as from the 19th, bar the Internationals and others who played rest of the world games etc. they are here for 2 weeks then get another week of so nearly 7 weeks between seasons. then its all go the 1st game is 25th July v Saracens (with Hamilton and Figallo) then Clermont 5(CHALLENGE VAQUERIN) London Irish in Grenoble ( swiss thing that started last pre season) and the 15/16th Aug we start the TOP 14 fixtures out the 5th july.

you know, I was just wondering about that yesterday night before this article here came out...I wondered where I could get a reliable final answer on that online....so it's just 7 weeks ?!...

 

[gaston le gaff]

what you have to remember with the stats you posted some of the players were injured during the season eg. Picamoles and Domingo so unless the stats reveal the time lost due to injury they are not really revelant, the players also get a week around the Nov Int's if they are not involved, but its not enough for the commitment they endue for their teams as they do take a pounding for approx 10 months of the year.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The number of days between the grand-final of one season, and the first game of the next one:

Top14: 77~
Aviva Premiership: 90/95~
PRO12: 90/95~
Super Rugby: 195~

Compared to other contact sport's off/pre-seasons:

NRL: 150~
Super League: 138~
NFL: 215~

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The number of days between the grand-final of one season, and the first game of the next one:

Top14: 77~
Aviva Premiership: 90/95~
PRO12: 90/95~
Super Rugby: 195~

Compared to other contact sport's off/pre-seasons:

NRL: 150~
Super League: 138~
NFL: 215~

Regarding Super League it's not really comparing like with like in that Super league (equivalent of the Heineken Cup) finishes in July and starts again the following February; hence the 6 month plus break In between; the second tier NZ and SA players play continue to play ITM and Currie Cup.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Super Rugby - not Super League.

Yes - it is an equivalent in some respects, but the top players from NZ and SA will barely play in them if at all.

 

[nickdnz]

Super Rugby - not Super League.

Yes - it is an equivalent in some respects, but the top players from NZ and SA will barely play in them if at all.

Well, not quite true, In New Zealand the players away on international duties (as it coincides with the RWC) will not play, unless players are not needed. Also some players who are given sabbatical will not play. Other than that (which constitutes 30 or so players), the rest of the players generally play ITM Cup. It's not as if the ITM Cup is only for fringe Super Rugby players.

The Currie Cup is even more competitive as it starts a bit earlier so will generally have all their Springboks avalible at least at certain points during the competition.

So yeah, you're right in that neither of them will be consistantly stacked with internationals, but it's also not as if they're totally without the top echlon of players either.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Well, not quite true, In New Zealand the players away on international duties (as it coincides with the RWC) will not play, unless players are not needed. Also some players who are given sabbatical will not play. Other than that (which constitutes 30 or so players), the rest of the players generally play ITM Cup. It's not as if the ITM Cup is only for fringe Super Rugby players.

That's basically what I meant by "top players".

That still leaves the number of days that players who play in both SR and ITM have for an off-season at about 123~.
Which is about 60% longer than that of T14 player's, and about 30% longer than what Premiership players get.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Super Rugby - not Super League.

Yes - it is an equivalent in some respects, but the top players from NZ and SA will barely play in them if at all.

Haha yes, thanks for the correction. I have no idea why I put Super League, when that's clearly Rugby League. Brain fart moment.

 

[BRSTLDRGN]

Hehe, "titularisations"

 

[Big Ewis]

The number of days between the grand-final of one season, and the first game of the next one:

Top14: 77~
Aviva Premiership: 90/95~
PRO12: 90/95~
Super Rugby: 195~

Compared to other contact sport's off/pre-seasons:

NRL: 150~
Super League: 138~
NFL: 215~

great investigation. Very good to have the numbers clearly aligned like that (whether you or whoever else did this).

 

[gaston le gaff]

The number of days between the grand-final of one season, and the first game of the next one:

Top14: 77~
Aviva Premiership: 90/95~
PRO12: 90/95~
Super Rugby: 195~

Compared to other contact sport's off/pre-seasons:

NRL: 150~
Super League: 138~
NFL: 215~

so the fact that the TOP 14 plays 2 games on top of everybody else also makes a vast difference, especially when a team wants to attack the Championship and the Euro Cup on both fronts. also another good reason why the squads are much bigger i guess. the only trouble with the stats that BE quoted was injury time out, and that throws it all a bit inconclusive i think......

 

[goodNumber10]

There are tons of factors to be taken into account on this playing time isn't the only one.

There is quality of care, how far a team got in their respective championships and the European cup and so on... the length of the season and involvement in rugby is key - which brings us back to length of off season.

 

[Big Ewis]

definitely. But it's just an interesting way to put things in perspective. For e.g. Hugo Bonneval is injured for God knows how long, a severe one that occurred in Test 3 in Aus. Stade Fra....uhm, Paris and coach Quesada are crying about how awful it is and how they're starting the season with hindrance already and it hasn't even begun...
Anyways, before reading those stats I'd go smt like "you see, it's those crazy minutes they play !!!". Now obviously he played a ton this year, between all those starts for Paris, playing in the Amlin thing, incl. the playoffs right before flying to Aus., and some France games. So there isn't the shadow of a doubt the pace of a yearly calendar is just infernal from any possible angle, but it's more the form of the France team that goes through scrutiny with such stats and obviously PSA's coaching that is completely exposed through this.
Again: France seemed in slow motion in Aus, and England resisted well in NZ. It ain't the quality of the players, and right now we see in terms of minutes those same England players play more in fact than the French.
And it's funny because, those people who merely blame the calendar about injuries in France: well England has been plagued with injuries themselves, at least as much as us, and play tons of minutes too, and yet they don't look like a Tier 2 side when they get together and play test Rugby.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The length of the off-season is the key though - the human body needs an extended period of time in order to recover from an entire season's slog.
It's why guys coming back from long-term injury often play so well - because they've been resting for long enough that their body has recovered fully from previous exertion.

The trouble with France is the attitude to effort though: it's practically binary for you guys.

Either you really give a **** and try your hardest, or you really couldn't care less and barely try.
With other countries there seems to be more of a gradient in application and effort.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Maybe the effort could be better if there was less game time which obviously means less matches, but that is still a massive debate in France as at the moment it's about 50/50 so we are no closer to playing less games,so the season has already started with pre season training and ends around beginning of June if you reach the final!!!!! Which more or less says all year round which is ridiculous....

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree, every aspect of performance will degrade if players don't get enough rest.

But there is an element of French culture (whether it's restricted to sports or not, I don't know) that can be quite defeatist - it's well expressed in the home/away win records, which are just as skewed in RL with the Catalans too.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

And the English clubs try to win the away games in the regular season, unlike the French who basically get every away game off.

 

[FrenchFan]

Bonneval will be out for 7 months.

I can understand Quesada's frustration. But SF have only got one player injured.

Toulouse have 4 now out of the 6 who got waylaid to Kangourou Park with Picamoles possibly a long term injury concern.

Who is paying for their injuries? well the club of course. And twice. Once, by footing the medical bills. And a second time because the injured players are not avaible for the pre-season and possibly first season games.

Now dont expect much "cooperation" for the Blue cause from Noves and others after they get their players back.

 

[FrenchFan]

And the English clubs try to win the away games in the regular season, unlike the French who basically get every away game off.

another English myth.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

another English myth.

Another French lie.

It's nice that Flood will get to relax more due to the lower impact and less minutes they play in the top 14.

I suppose with the increase in veteran players in French rugby, playing more minutes a season would be considered a major heath hazard.

 

[FrenchFan]

everybody knows the season is 10 months and pre-season short.The stats are only showing what every fan and his mother knows

they mean ZIP. They're not telling us anything we didn't know already.

you may find the next Lotto winner in your stats if you look long enough.

 

[FrenchFan]

Another French lie.

It's nice that Flood will get to relax more due to the lower impact and less minutes they play in the top 14.

I suppose with the increase in veteran players in French rugby, playing more minutes a season would be considered a major heath hazard.

we'll squeeze every drop out of Toby. We'll get every penny worth out of him

 

[Big Ewis]

there's absolutely no denying France (national team) is capricious, affected. But this isn't even worth posting about in bunches right now, it's well documented and has been discussed enormously in the past. They lose to Tonga in a RWC because they literally didn't want to play, even the Tongan players later admitted France seemed uninterested, with their minds elsewhere. I mean how else is a Tier 1 nation with a super scrum and excellent defense and good attacking etc...going to lose at the RWC, in the pools ?

Then you have your classic example, and I'll stop there, of France being able to beat the crap out of sides like few can, and then just lifting the foot off the clutch: 2006 FRA IRE. Look it up. 43-3 at a point, final score: 43-31. Read that line again. That's right.

So that's something you'll find some of in the Top 14, necessarily. I think Toulouse are the absolutely paradigm by excellence of that symptom: losing to Connacht at home, after beating the later H Cup finalists Saracens both at home and away. Losing to Munster by 100 points.

About the fact that clubs lose in away fixtures in the Top 14 very often, it's been discussed a lot previously. But obviously teams don't just feel hungover or lazy or wtvr when they play away; it's just the season's pace forces coaching staffs to be realistic and not burn their guys out. Not every team has the depth to play a legit B side on the road, and they most certainly can't have all their main guys start and play every single fixture. That's just not possible, physically, and therefor doesn't occur. Teams have to go into a foreign stadium with realistic expectations and targets: get a defensive bonus, maybe even tie. Perhaps try new/young player, strategy out...
But you're just not going to see Castres go into Toulouse and beat the crap out of them by 20, return home, beat Clermont and Paris, then play a couple of H Cup pool games against Leinster, then go to Montpellier and beat them, then play a close one in Toulon...like, haha, that shiit just isn't realistic.

 

[Big Ewis]

Another French lie.

It's nice that Flood will get to relax more due to the lower impact and less minutes they play in the top 14.

I suppose with the increase in veteran players in French rugby, playing more minutes a season would be considered a major heath hazard.

dude just learned that stat 25 minutes ago and he's already using it to swing at France :lol:
Are you trying hard to be disliked and perpetuate the clichés, or are the clichés just that true that you absolutely cannot help it ?!

And "French lies" are a thing now ? "Another French lie" ?? huh ?? wut ??
aie aie aie.......

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The effects of French rugby on the average pro rugby player.

Before French Rugby

and what happens when he plays in france

Hopefully Toulouse don't do this to Flood.