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International Test Matches
[2014 Mid-Year Test] South Africa vs Wales (1st Test)
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<blockquote data-quote="TRF_stormer2010" data-source="post: 652818" data-attributes="member: 39190"><p>So partial (majority) responsibility effectively equates to zero responsibility in the light of what a people call themselves seperately or as a collective and even if it does 'technically' the agrieved people have are ignorant if they have any feeling of being aggrieved even if they feel the effects of war today still? Okay, got that. That actualy suit me fine as it means us Boere have a handy way of escaping any ancestral guilt we carry as a people too! </p><p></p><p>Listen, seriously now. I don't hold anything against any English person (at least not any individual) and I expect the same from any black man towards me as I was an infant during Apartheid and my father actually voted for free elections and I have no interest in debating the technicalities of Apartheid because when all is said and done a large group of people were set back hugely and suffered and is suffering now because of it and there's no two ways about it. It's history and lets move on as best we can together but to say one can't judge the past is ridiculous and it's unfair to deny people their feelings of general if not specific resentment. It's also not realistic to say these things won't (even if arguably it shouldn't) factor in a sporting context as that is the most simple way in which countries are competing against each other in the contemporary setting IE the teams bare the same names (or at last connoctations) of the nations that competed against each other in warfare in bygone days and of course that animosity will come up even if only as banter or minor motivation for the most part. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am not going to back all the other South Africans' statement but you do have to see SA's selections of foreign players out of the SA perspective;</p><p></p><p>- Guys like Guthro Steenkamp and Bakkies Botha are called up largely because they have proved themselves in the past in green and gold. In the cases od Burden and Kockott, yes they are in good form but the way they are regarded in SA will be based on what they achieved in SA (mostly notiriety) since the vast (99% probably) majority of SA fans don't follow Top 14. That does effect the selections for sure even if the selectors do probably keep very close tabs on our talent in Europe.</p><p>- Those old guys who might not be in top form at least earned their colors playing for local teams. If we start calling up guys who have not 'made their breaks' in SA we take another step in encouragiing our players to go for the bigger money while many are of the opinion we have gone to far in selecting overseas based players already. I am sure I don't need to address why a healthy local set up is crucial to a good test team.. I mean the reasons are just too many for a simple reply.</p><p>- The benefit of the selection should just fall to the guy in SA. Not least for the fact that the SA management will just have better access to him and more influence over the players management at sub-test level. </p><p>- The guys we have here aren't **** and you can only have 23 in the matchday squad. I mean, who of Bismarck (admittedly not his best game this Saturday) and Strauss should we bump for Burden? Juandre Kruger has been going well but so have many locks in SA (although we are facing a minor injury crisis in the position we have the depth in that position). Kockott might have a case but that stigma is stuck with him rightly or wrongly as long as he plays overseas and we actually have 2 good options locally if HM had the willingness to call them up but he tends to not give out too many Bok caps in a single game which is probably the best as continuity counts for a lot and he has shown over two years that he can manage to get the best out of certain players us fans might not have the most love for- and yes you are right the SA public falls out of love with a player very quickly if his form goes poor. That's just a result of good depth and high expectations IMO.</p><p></p><p>I am not at all saying guys who didn't perform here but are now performing in the Top 14 for whatever reason/s (regular playing time, possible better coaching, game plans that suit them better, just getting better with age etc.) aren't good enough, just that Top 14 is not South African (quite yet) and so for the most part form only a minor part of SA rugby if that makes any sense?</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>EDIT; I see my English has left me with the wine coming in so just ignore anything I said here as it just doesn't make any sense. I'll leave it up for the sake of amusement.</strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TRF_stormer2010, post: 652818, member: 39190"] So partial (majority) responsibility effectively equates to zero responsibility in the light of what a people call themselves seperately or as a collective and even if it does 'technically' the agrieved people have are ignorant if they have any feeling of being aggrieved even if they feel the effects of war today still? Okay, got that. That actualy suit me fine as it means us Boere have a handy way of escaping any ancestral guilt we carry as a people too! Listen, seriously now. I don't hold anything against any English person (at least not any individual) and I expect the same from any black man towards me as I was an infant during Apartheid and my father actually voted for free elections and I have no interest in debating the technicalities of Apartheid because when all is said and done a large group of people were set back hugely and suffered and is suffering now because of it and there's no two ways about it. It's history and lets move on as best we can together but to say one can't judge the past is ridiculous and it's unfair to deny people their feelings of general if not specific resentment. It's also not realistic to say these things won't (even if arguably it shouldn't) factor in a sporting context as that is the most simple way in which countries are competing against each other in the contemporary setting IE the teams bare the same names (or at last connoctations) of the nations that competed against each other in warfare in bygone days and of course that animosity will come up even if only as banter or minor motivation for the most part. I am not going to back all the other South Africans' statement but you do have to see SA's selections of foreign players out of the SA perspective; - Guys like Guthro Steenkamp and Bakkies Botha are called up largely because they have proved themselves in the past in green and gold. In the cases od Burden and Kockott, yes they are in good form but the way they are regarded in SA will be based on what they achieved in SA (mostly notiriety) since the vast (99% probably) majority of SA fans don't follow Top 14. That does effect the selections for sure even if the selectors do probably keep very close tabs on our talent in Europe. - Those old guys who might not be in top form at least earned their colors playing for local teams. If we start calling up guys who have not 'made their breaks' in SA we take another step in encouragiing our players to go for the bigger money while many are of the opinion we have gone to far in selecting overseas based players already. I am sure I don't need to address why a healthy local set up is crucial to a good test team.. I mean the reasons are just too many for a simple reply. - The benefit of the selection should just fall to the guy in SA. Not least for the fact that the SA management will just have better access to him and more influence over the players management at sub-test level. - The guys we have here aren't **** and you can only have 23 in the matchday squad. I mean, who of Bismarck (admittedly not his best game this Saturday) and Strauss should we bump for Burden? Juandre Kruger has been going well but so have many locks in SA (although we are facing a minor injury crisis in the position we have the depth in that position). Kockott might have a case but that stigma is stuck with him rightly or wrongly as long as he plays overseas and we actually have 2 good options locally if HM had the willingness to call them up but he tends to not give out too many Bok caps in a single game which is probably the best as continuity counts for a lot and he has shown over two years that he can manage to get the best out of certain players us fans might not have the most love for- and yes you are right the SA public falls out of love with a player very quickly if his form goes poor. That's just a result of good depth and high expectations IMO. I am not at all saying guys who didn't perform here but are now performing in the Top 14 for whatever reason/s (regular playing time, possible better coaching, game plans that suit them better, just getting better with age etc.) aren't good enough, just that Top 14 is not South African (quite yet) and so for the most part form only a minor part of SA rugby if that makes any sense? [B] EDIT; I see my English has left me with the wine coming in so just ignore anything I said here as it just doesn't make any sense. I'll leave it up for the sake of amusement.[/B] [/QUOTE]
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[2014 Mid-Year Test] South Africa vs Wales (1st Test)
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