• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

[2018 Rugby Championship] Round 2: New Zealand v Australia (25/08/2018)

All Black

Bench Player
Joined
Feb 26, 2018
Messages
624
Reaction score
163
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

New Zealand

Sensitive topic though. I've found most kiwi's smack me down when i raise this as a potential advantage (along with the haka potentially giving them a psychological edge). 'Straya certainly benefits from the Islands. Toutai Kefu is Tongan. The soon to be best THP in the world's nick name is 'Tongan Thor'.

It would be cool if respective rugby unions could collaborate to improve the game over all. NZRU obviously have it down, they could collaberate with smaller or developing unions to help them implement decent systems early to increase the number of competitive nations internationally ('straya could use some of that). I think, for example, the rapidly developing US would benefit from this.
People often overlook the fact that the SH is trying to help the NH with their rugby.

The Tongan Thor is a mercenary. He got told by the All Blacks that he wasn't ready yet and so he took off to Aus. He wanted the big bucks straight away and fair enough I guess.

If the US really took to rugby, they would be as you say - rapidly developing. They'd be a force in no time and would probably rise over some of the tier one nations that have been playing longer.
 

Derpus

Bench Player
Joined
Nov 16, 2017
Messages
710
Reaction score
340
Country Flag

Australia

Club or Nation

Waratahs

People often overlook the fact that the SH is trying to help the NH with their rugby.

The Tongan Thor is a mercenary. He got told by the All Blacks that he wasn't ready yet and so he took off to Aus. He wanted the big bucks straight away and fair enough I guess.

If the US really took to rugby, they would be as you say - rapidly developing. They'd be a force in no time and would probably rise over some of the tier one nations that have been playing longer.
They all are. If they could make big dollars in Fiji or Tonga they would stay with their families. They leave to make money to send back. All of the Islanders who leave as teens or adults to wherever are leaving for cash.

Also the US are developing. They just started a new domestic competition and invested pretty large sums. They are also reporting quite a lot of interest in the sport in general.
 
Last edited:

Jabby

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
3,247
Reaction score
781
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

id love to see the NZRU help world rugby...but they just don't have the cash, we're already seeing the rot in NZ rugby starting at the bottom, with unions going broke and having to be rescued. as much as we love to think about the AB's as this untouchable icon....if the domestic unions keep struggling then then the AB's will suffer in the long run
 

mania

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
588
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Samoa

If the US really took to rugby, they would be as you say - rapidly developing. They'd be a force in no time and would probably rise over some of the tier one nations that have been playing longer.
nah. US wont be a rugby power for at least a few decades at least.
my niece plays rugby in missouri on scholarship and they dont get it.
they run rugby like they run gridiron with the coach controlling every single play from the sideline. players like my niece are encouraged not to look at whats in front of her but to check with the coach as to what the next play is.
she gets very frustrated
 

smartcooky

Referee Coach and Advisor
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
5,730
Reaction score
762
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Tasman

GDP per capita of New Zealand - 39,500 USD
GDP per capita of Madagascar - 401 USD

That has sod all to do with rugby

That's an awful pedantic straw man there!

It would be good if you actually knew what strawman is

Of course, I understand Madagascar is an outlier case, that was my point. You can't simply statements like a sport being No. 1 and with high player numbers is an automatic ticket to world domination. It simple does not work like that. The Kangaroos dominate the world in RL, they have high player numbers too, but RL is a long, long war from being the No. 1 sport in Australia; its 3rd in attendance and not even in the top 10 for participation.
 

All Black

Bench Player
Joined
Feb 26, 2018
Messages
624
Reaction score
163
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

New Zealand

That has sod all to do with rugby
I agree. It is what it is. NZ have less playing numbers than some other countries. Thats it!

Who cares about per capita? it's just simply some countries have more playing numbers and thats the truth. No excuses.
 

The_Blindside

International
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Oct 17, 2013
Messages
5,985
Reaction score
1,123
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

British Irish Lions

nah. US wont be a rugby power for at least a few decades at least.
my niece plays rugby in missouri on scholarship and they dont get it.
they run rugby like they run gridiron with the coach controlling every single play from the sideline. players like my niece are encouraged not to look at whats in front of her but to check with the coach as to what the next play is.
she gets very frustrated

I have my doubts that the US Eagles will ever be a “rugby power” - by that I mean in the 15s men’s game and US Eagles ever competing with the top tier teams on a consistent basis regardless of how good a one off win v Scotland was recently. First and foremost Sports market is just too saturated in the US to attract the very best athletes to the sport - they will always go where the best money is paid, which will be a big hindrance in getting, keeping and developing players good enough to compete at the elite end of the sport.

Sevens has a better chance.
 

The Alpha Bro

Fat Boi
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
12,876
Reaction score
3,490
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leinster

That has sod all to do with rugby

Lol, yes it does. It's a clear indication that there isn't the money in Madagascar to pump into the infrastructure schools, clubs and the NZRU have to produce the players it does. It shows that many people in Madagascar will struggle to provide themselves with adequate nutrition, let alone the nutrition required to build a World Class rugby player.


It would be good if you actually knew what strawman is

I do, and you've just presented another one...

Of course, I understand Madagascar is an outlier case, that was my point. You can't simply statements like a sport being No. 1 and with high player numbers is an automatic ticket to world domination. It simple does not work like that. The Kangaroos dominate the world in RL, they have high player numbers too, but RL is a long, long war from being the No. 1 sport in Australia; its 3rd in attendance and not even in the top 10 for participation.
This would prove your point if any country had league as it's national sport, inb4 Papua New Guinea with their tiny GDP and dispersed population, but no country with the capabilities of consistently producing top class athletes has league as their national sport. Australia is also a bloody large country with areas as populous as New Zealand that are league strongholds.

Sooo, in conclusion, you appear to be refuting ncurd's point but your use of countries where the majority of the population live in poverty and sports that have a fraction of the popularity rugby boasts are fallacies.

Now, it may just have been you wanting to show how knowledgeable you are knowing about Madagascar's rugby culture but it was presented in such a way that it was rebutting the original point while any reasonable person knows that it doesn't come close to that.

And as to the bolded you are correct, you can't. However in this case it's pretty damn obvious that it does considering the one country where people can adequately feed themselves and that has rugby as their main sport with no political interference dominates the thing. I don't know why you'd bother disputing this, it doesn't make NZ any more or less impressive in rugby terms, they have their advantages and are exploiting them. I readily accept that the IRFU's control over their players and the high concentration of rich fee paying, rugby focused schools is the reason Ireland and Leinster punch above their weight. The popularity of rugby, and all the advantages that come with that is where NZ get and exploit their advantages, there's no magic to it...
 

ncurd

International
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
8,519
Reaction score
2,201
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

Its the infrastructure supported through popularity stupid.

I wrote a long post but I couldn't be arsed when people don't realise factors like GDP I generally give up.

Afterall I'm trying to point out is participation numbers on their own are utterly rubbish.

Which is evidently so otherwise NZ would get thrashed unless you believe in divine right to win....
 

mania

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
588
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Samoa

I have my doubts that the US Eagles will ever be a “rugby power” - by that I mean in the 15s men’s game and US Eagles ever competing with the top tier teams on a consistent basis regardless of how good a one off win v Scotland was recently. First and foremost Sports market is just too saturated in the US to attract the very best athletes to the sport - they will always go where the best money is paid, which will be a big hindrance in getting, keeping and developing players good enough to compete at the elite end of the sport.

Sevens has a better chance.
also rugby will make them better gridiron players. so they may dabble in rugby but once the big money gets offered for someone who knows how to smash people without pads and a helmet. then theyre off to the NFL
 

All Black

Bench Player
Joined
Feb 26, 2018
Messages
624
Reaction score
163
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

New Zealand

Numbers don't lie. It's simple unless you look for excuses and then you present hypotheticals whilst the facts are, theres more playing numbers in other countries than there are others. 10 thousand is a lot of people but 100 thousand...wow thats a big orchid with a whole lot of apples to choose from. No excuses, no unsupported hypotheticals, numbers don't lie, now whos about to cry HAHAHA.

Getting sick of the excuses really. Especially from countries that NZ helps to improve their game.
 
Last edited:

Jabby

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
3,247
Reaction score
781
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

they are very well supported ideas though, not unsupported hypothetical...

If rugby is the fourth or fifth most popular sport then its quite likely the people the the skills to match the AB's are already playing other sports....you could have a million registered players but if its a million duds then they're not going to get anywhere, the other side of the coin being if the savea's, barrett's and whitelocks kept spitting out kids we'd only need 15 registered players

and of course the GDP plays a role...if people dont have money to spend on watching rugby then thats income not being injected into the sport...and if people are that poor then they're not going to be spending as much time practicing, they'll be out working

accepting factors that lead to nz being good at rugby doesn't stop us being good at rugby....this is baffling
 

All Black

Bench Player
Joined
Feb 26, 2018
Messages
624
Reaction score
163
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

New Zealand

they are very well supported ideas though, not unsupported hypothetical...

If rugby is the fourth or fifth most popular sport then its quite likely the people the the skills to match the AB's are already playing other sports....you could have a million registered players but if its a million duds then they're not going to get anywhere, the other side of the coin being if the savea's, barrett's and whitelocks kept spitting out kids we'd only need 15 registered players

and of course the GDP plays a role...if people dont have money to spend on watching rugby then thats income not being injected into the sport...and if people are that poor then they're not going to be spending as much time practicing, they'll be out working

accepting factors that lead to nz being good at rugby doesn't stop us being good at rugby....this is baffling
Disagree with some of that unless you can sway me. You say it is not unsupported hypothetical. Cool. That means you have proof. Can you please share the proof on here? A research to show that it is supported and not just a 'you should know'.
 

ncurd

International
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
8,519
Reaction score
2,201
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

I'm trying to decide whether All Black is trolling, taking the **** or just general sarcasm.

But sure here we go, goggle-fu activate!

http://re-design.dimiter.eu/?p=868
In conclusion, do the population size, economic power and wealth of countries account for their success at the 2016 Olympic games? Yes, to a large extent. It is economic power and not relative wealth that matters more, and population size actually has a negative effect once economic power is taken into account. So the relationships are rather complex and, to remind, far from deterministic.
Boo yah
 

All Black

Bench Player
Joined
Feb 26, 2018
Messages
624
Reaction score
163
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

New Zealand

I'm trying to decide whether All Black is trolling, taking the **** or just general sarcasm.

But sure here we go, goggle-fu activate!

http://re-design.dimiter.eu/?p=868
Boo yah
What you provided is not specific to what we're talking about and what you're saying. The source I provided was about rugby.

If its about money well you get paid more money in europe to play pro rugby than you do in NZ.

As long as the All Blacks are the best. I'm all good lol. I just hate the excuses.

Heaps of players in England, thats for sure ;)

Boo yah lol
 
Last edited:

ncurd

International
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
8,519
Reaction score
2,201
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

Yeah you're being a dick now absolutely no critical thinking on your part just utter drivel.
 

El_Matador

Academy Player
Joined
Aug 31, 2018
Messages
2
Reaction score
3
Country Flag

Spain

Club or Nation

Valladolid

It's quite amusing how oblivious this ncurd guy is to how bitter and envious he sounds of the All Blacks success and the lengths at which he's attempting to discredit their success is laughable and pathetic.
 

ncurd

International
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
8,519
Reaction score
2,201
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

Yeah in giving reasons and looking at the root causes for their success I'm totally trying to discredit them...
 
Top