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<blockquote data-quote="McTallshort" data-source="post: 997399" data-attributes="member: 53362"><p>Ok [USER=56767]@Amiga500[/USER] you are wrong on Churchill and the contribution to defeating Nazi Germany on a number of points and they are:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Had Churchill not been PM after the fall of France, a Government headed by Halifax would have accepted Hitlers peace terms. This would have meant a government headed up or at least including Oswold Mosley (which should be reason enough to thank Churchill), no Battle of Britain which wiped off a 3rd of the Luftwaffe's strength (which it failed to replace before Barbarossa) and no campaign in the Western Desert but we will come onto that later.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">With the British empire still in the war at the end of 1940 Nazi Germany decided to starve them into submission and started the longest campaign of the war: The battle of the Atlantic. Now why was this important and why was Churchill key to it? Well because his cousin happened to be the President of the United States and it was this campaign and Churchill's relationship with Roosevelt that brought America into the war with Germany from a material perspective even before Pearl Harbour which would be possibly the deciding factor of the whole war. Before Pearl Harbour the US navy was engaging the Kriegsmarine in the Atlantic, was supplying the Royal Navy with destroyers and providing air cover from Greenland to the Eastern sea board. None of this would have been possible had it not been Churchill's ability to persuade the President of a very isolationist country to effectively go to war. Yes some Americans like Henry Ford also supplied the Nazi's but Churchill was key to bringing the industrial might of the US into the war, something that would save the Soviet Union from defeat in the coming years.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">June 1941 and Nazi Germany invade the Soviet Union and start the biggest, most destructive war in the history of mankind. Now what is often forgotten is the state of the Wehrmacht prior to this invasion. It was short of aircraft (thanks to the Battle of Britain) and its Panzer arm was short of fuel and its tanks were worn out having fought a brief but logistically tough campaign in the Balkans and Greece. This was not a campaign that the Nazi's had wanted to fight but because the pro Nazi government in Yugoslavia had been toppled by a British intelligence led coup (who would not be involved had Britain not still been in the war) and given the strategic importance of the this area Hitler had to intervene also Italy had bungled its invasion of Greece and Commonwealth troops were sent their to assist the Greeks so the Germans had to intervene again. Now both campaigns were over quickly and the performance of the Commonwealth troops were not the best but it delayed the start of Barbarossa and ate up fuel and spare parts that were to make all the difference in the coming months.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In the first 2 months of Barbarossa the Germans inflict a number of cataclysmic defeats on the Red Army. Now Stalin is as much to blame for that as the Germans but even with these losses the Germans are still no closer to defeating the Soviet Union than they were in June. Yes they had captured millions of prisoners and lots of land but the Red Army was still able to field formations so the goal of Barbarossa: the destruction of the red army was still a long way off. Now for all the German success they are starting to have some real problems: They are running out of infantry, casualties are close to 200k which represents 30% of the total infantry numbers ( 3 million Germans invaded the USSR but most of these soldiers would be in support units) this was down to the Red Army so no credit to Mr Churchill there, they had also run out of fuel which you can credit to the earlier campaigns in 1941. Many think that the capture of Moscow would have ended the war in 1941 (Im not one of those people but..) the Germans were not able to do this because by December 1941 the Wehrmacht was in such a poor state in terms of men and materials that the Soviet counter attack outside Moscow almost defeated the Germans in 1941. Now they would have been in a much better position had they had more men (thanks to the red army) more fuel and vehicles (thanks to all the 1941 campaigns not just Babarossa), more aircraft (thanks to the RAF) and the very capable Panzer Division currently tied up in the Western desert.</li> </ul><p>So the war is into its second year and already the seeds for the Nazi's defeat have been sown. Had the British Empire agreed peace terms with the Nazis then then Hitler would have had a much larger air force, more resources to put towards Barbarossa as they wouldn't have been fighting the Battle of the Atlantic against 2 naval powers and a much fresher and well supplied army to invade the Soviet Union.</p><p></p><p>But the real key in the early years was getting the material assistance from the Americans who were very very reluctant to get involved in a European war. This was key to the outcome of WWII because without the tanks, materials and in particular the trucks supplied to the Soviet Union then Germany would have not been defeated and the key person in getting that assistance was Churchill. Also keeping Britain in the war meant that the second most important factor in defeating Germany was realised: The breaking of the Enigma code.</p><p></p><p>Look Churchill was like your least favourite, racist uncle who comes over at christmas, has too much to drink and ****** everyone off but despite all that can be said about him ( and there is much) to say he wasn't a key reason for the defeat of Nazi Germany is wrong and doesn't look at the whole picture in regards the reasons for Hitlers defeat. </p><p></p><p>Now I would go into the mid and later war years including the stopping of Stalin's plan to execute hundreds of thousands of Germans out of revenge but I am at work so that will have to wait for another time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="McTallshort, post: 997399, member: 53362"] Ok [USER=56767]@Amiga500[/USER] you are wrong on Churchill and the contribution to defeating Nazi Germany on a number of points and they are: [LIST] [*]Had Churchill not been PM after the fall of France, a Government headed by Halifax would have accepted Hitlers peace terms. This would have meant a government headed up or at least including Oswold Mosley (which should be reason enough to thank Churchill), no Battle of Britain which wiped off a 3rd of the Luftwaffe's strength (which it failed to replace before Barbarossa) and no campaign in the Western Desert but we will come onto that later. [*]With the British empire still in the war at the end of 1940 Nazi Germany decided to starve them into submission and started the longest campaign of the war: The battle of the Atlantic. Now why was this important and why was Churchill key to it? Well because his cousin happened to be the President of the United States and it was this campaign and Churchill's relationship with Roosevelt that brought America into the war with Germany from a material perspective even before Pearl Harbour which would be possibly the deciding factor of the whole war. Before Pearl Harbour the US navy was engaging the Kriegsmarine in the Atlantic, was supplying the Royal Navy with destroyers and providing air cover from Greenland to the Eastern sea board. None of this would have been possible had it not been Churchill's ability to persuade the President of a very isolationist country to effectively go to war. Yes some Americans like Henry Ford also supplied the Nazi's but Churchill was key to bringing the industrial might of the US into the war, something that would save the Soviet Union from defeat in the coming years. [*]June 1941 and Nazi Germany invade the Soviet Union and start the biggest, most destructive war in the history of mankind. Now what is often forgotten is the state of the Wehrmacht prior to this invasion. It was short of aircraft (thanks to the Battle of Britain) and its Panzer arm was short of fuel and its tanks were worn out having fought a brief but logistically tough campaign in the Balkans and Greece. This was not a campaign that the Nazi's had wanted to fight but because the pro Nazi government in Yugoslavia had been toppled by a British intelligence led coup (who would not be involved had Britain not still been in the war) and given the strategic importance of the this area Hitler had to intervene also Italy had bungled its invasion of Greece and Commonwealth troops were sent their to assist the Greeks so the Germans had to intervene again. Now both campaigns were over quickly and the performance of the Commonwealth troops were not the best but it delayed the start of Barbarossa and ate up fuel and spare parts that were to make all the difference in the coming months. [*]In the first 2 months of Barbarossa the Germans inflict a number of cataclysmic defeats on the Red Army. Now Stalin is as much to blame for that as the Germans but even with these losses the Germans are still no closer to defeating the Soviet Union than they were in June. Yes they had captured millions of prisoners and lots of land but the Red Army was still able to field formations so the goal of Barbarossa: the destruction of the red army was still a long way off. Now for all the German success they are starting to have some real problems: They are running out of infantry, casualties are close to 200k which represents 30% of the total infantry numbers ( 3 million Germans invaded the USSR but most of these soldiers would be in support units) this was down to the Red Army so no credit to Mr Churchill there, they had also run out of fuel which you can credit to the earlier campaigns in 1941. Many think that the capture of Moscow would have ended the war in 1941 (Im not one of those people but..) the Germans were not able to do this because by December 1941 the Wehrmacht was in such a poor state in terms of men and materials that the Soviet counter attack outside Moscow almost defeated the Germans in 1941. Now they would have been in a much better position had they had more men (thanks to the red army) more fuel and vehicles (thanks to all the 1941 campaigns not just Babarossa), more aircraft (thanks to the RAF) and the very capable Panzer Division currently tied up in the Western desert. [/LIST] So the war is into its second year and already the seeds for the Nazi's defeat have been sown. Had the British Empire agreed peace terms with the Nazis then then Hitler would have had a much larger air force, more resources to put towards Barbarossa as they wouldn't have been fighting the Battle of the Atlantic against 2 naval powers and a much fresher and well supplied army to invade the Soviet Union. But the real key in the early years was getting the material assistance from the Americans who were very very reluctant to get involved in a European war. This was key to the outcome of WWII because without the tanks, materials and in particular the trucks supplied to the Soviet Union then Germany would have not been defeated and the key person in getting that assistance was Churchill. Also keeping Britain in the war meant that the second most important factor in defeating Germany was realised: The breaking of the Enigma code. Look Churchill was like your least favourite, racist uncle who comes over at christmas, has too much to drink and ****** everyone off but despite all that can be said about him ( and there is much) to say he wasn't a key reason for the defeat of Nazi Germany is wrong and doesn't look at the whole picture in regards the reasons for Hitlers defeat. Now I would go into the mid and later war years including the stopping of Stalin's plan to execute hundreds of thousands of Germans out of revenge but I am at work so that will have to wait for another time. [/QUOTE]
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